XD40EZO
Member
they need to install "decockers" on shotguns...
HD Shotgun Question...
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Zach S
Member
Thanks Dave, after reading some of the replies in this thread I thought I had it wrong all these years.
ReadyontheRight
Member
Whoops! I guess my definition of "cruiser ready" has been wrong all these years. Sorry! Thanks Dave Mc for the correction. Good point about putting the hammer down 3 or so times per day at shift change.
Yet another reason to know thy shotgun. The lever to open the action and the safety are in a different spot on almost every pump shotgun I've handled.
Yet another reason to know thy shotgun. The lever to open the action and the safety are in a different spot on almost every pump shotgun I've handled.
Sportcat
Member
Great information here! Unfortunately I'm having a heck of a time finding 12ga, 2 3/4", 00 buck, 9 pellet shells around here. 
Mannlicher
Member
For me, a defense weapon is going to be loaded weapon. That means chamber as well as magazine. Most of the time, the need to react has a very small window, and the less I have to do to be able to counteract a threat makes the response faster.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Dave,
After all these years you know that if I were gonna pick an argument over anything shotgun related, you would be the last person on the continent I'd be apt to square off with. So please don't think of this as argumentative, because it isn't intended to be at all. Nor is it an attempt to further muddy already roiled waters. That there is a difference in definitions re. the terms is not surprising.
I was taught my serious shotgunning by non-LEO instructors- some were military, some were civilian. The magazine loaded/chamber empty/hammer down/safety on status was what I was taught, and it was defined by some as 'cruiser safe' or 'cruiser ready.' Note that I have never been employed in law enforcement professionally, I did work reserve status for three years with the small- town department where I lived in the late 1970s but that was it. I have never had training on shotguns at the hands of a certified law enforcement trainer.
Again, I am not attempting to launch a dust-up here over what is right or proper or best, it is obviously not for me to say because I am certainly in no position to be considered an arbiter of what constitutes tactically proper shotgun manipulation. I can certainly understand the concern over three shifts a day dropping hammers on shotguns every time they get ready to put them in the racks. Given that perspective I would most likely not train/teach/instruct the 'hammer down' mode either. The inevitability of ADs/NDs/whatever is not to be argued with when daily manipulation of shotguns by a number of people working at varying degrees of alertness is taking place.
But some are in fact teaching the hammer down mode. Please note the following:
http://www.aslet.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=559
"Cruiser Safe" and "Select-A-Slug" [snipped]
A Closer Look at Two Tactical Concepts
By Captain Marshall McDonald
[Inserted here from author's biography elsewhere on site- lpl]
ASLET is pleased to have Captain Marshall McDonald as one of our online columnists. In addition to being a longtime member and state representative for ASLET, Captain McDonald has 17 years of service with the Oklahoma County Sheriff’s Office and has been a certified trainer since 1987. He holds numerous state and national certifications in firearms, defensive tactics and law enforcement driver’s training, and has been assigned as a fulltime firearms instructor and Rangemaster for 8 years. He has served on the agency’s Tactical Unit for 15 years, and has completed assignments with the sniper unit and the entry team. For the past 10 years he has been assigned as the Operations Commander and Training Supervisor for the Tactical Unit. [End bio insert-lpl]
The “Cruiser Safe†mode and “Select-a-Slug†procedures are both vital concepts that support the efficient tactical deployment of the shotgun while maximizing safety and convenience.
Many patrol vehicle roofs, windshields and trunk lids have been unexpectedly mangled by officers who were not sure of the condition of the shotgun they were handling. The property damage pales in comparison to the risk presented to fellow officers and the public when the negligent discharge of a firearm occurs.
The term “Cruiser Safe†was coined to define the degree of readiness that a shotgun can be placed into, so that everyone will be aware of its condition. When in “Cruiser Safe†condition, the safety is in the “ON†position and the shotgun is magazine loaded with buckshot. The chamber is empty and the weapon is in a “hammer down†condition. (The hammer must be in the down position to unlock the action bars so that the action can be cycled when a round is needed)
When preparing to make the shotgun “Cruiser Safeâ€, you must first make sure that the safety is in the “ON†position. Then open the action so that you can physically and visually check the chamber and magazine tube to insure that no ammunition is present. Once you are certain that the weapon is not loaded, you may proceed with the following steps.
Slowly close the action, while keeping visual contact with the open action, insuring that no ammunition is loaded into the chamber.
Once the action is closed on an empty chamber, point the muzzle in a safe direction. (A safe direction is defined as that in which personal or property damage will not occur should there be a negligent discharge)
Move the safety to the “OFF†position, squeeze the trigger and move the safety back into the “ON†position. This step will cause the hammer to fall, releasing the action so that a round can be cycled into the chamber when needed.
Failure to successfully complete step 3 will cause the action to be locked, and will require that the action release be activated before the action can be cycled.
Fully load the magazine with buckshot.
The shotgun is now loaded “Cruiser Safe.â€
To deploy the shotgun for action, you simply cycle the action, which will load a round from the magazine, and move the safety to the “OFF†position when ready to fire.
Now, let’s assume that you have deployed the shotgun from your vehicle and have cycled the action. You determine that you do not need to employ deadly force and are no longer posed with a threat. You need to return the weapon to “Cruiser Safe,†so that it can be stored in the patrol car rack again.
Can we accomplish this without completely unloading and starting over? The answer is yes, and the procedure is not only quite simple, but closely resembles the Unloading procedures covered last month.
The following procedure must be followed to the letter to avoid a negligent discharge.
Point the muzzle in a safe direction and insure the safety is in the “ON†position.
Grasp the shotgun by the grip portion and hold the shotgun parallel to the ground.
Use your support hand to begin slowly opening the action. Your support hand thumb can be placed over the top of the barrel to assist in controlling the speed in which the action is opened.
Open the action until the nose of the shell that is being extracted from the chamber, just clears the front of the ejection port and begins to be turned outward. The action should be almost all of the way open with about ¾†of the bolt showing, near the rear of the ejection port.
Do not open the action any further. Use your support hand to remove the shell.
Carefully close the action making sure that no ammunition is being loaded into the chamber.
Once the action is closed on an empty chamber, point the weapon in a safe direction and move the safety to the “OFF†position. Squeeze the trigger and move the safety back into the “ON†position.
This step will cause the hammer to fall, releasing the action so that a round can be cycled into the chamber when needed. Failure to successfully complete step 6 will cause the action to be locked, and will require that the action release be activated before the action can be cycled.
Insert the shell that was removed from the chamber back into the magazine.
The shotgun is now returned to “Cruiser Safe.â€
We have found that requiring all shotguns to be loaded “Cruiser Safe†when stored in vehicle racks has cut down on confusion and allow everyone who accesses the weapon to have a reasonable idea of the condition of the weapon, however this does not relieve you of the responsibility of checking the condition of any weapon you handle.
["Select-a-Slug" portion of column removed- lpl]
After all these years you know that if I were gonna pick an argument over anything shotgun related, you would be the last person on the continent I'd be apt to square off with. So please don't think of this as argumentative, because it isn't intended to be at all. Nor is it an attempt to further muddy already roiled waters. That there is a difference in definitions re. the terms is not surprising.
I was taught my serious shotgunning by non-LEO instructors- some were military, some were civilian. The magazine loaded/chamber empty/hammer down/safety on status was what I was taught, and it was defined by some as 'cruiser safe' or 'cruiser ready.' Note that I have never been employed in law enforcement professionally, I did work reserve status for three years with the small- town department where I lived in the late 1970s but that was it. I have never had training on shotguns at the hands of a certified law enforcement trainer.
Again, I am not attempting to launch a dust-up here over what is right or proper or best, it is obviously not for me to say because I am certainly in no position to be considered an arbiter of what constitutes tactically proper shotgun manipulation. I can certainly understand the concern over three shifts a day dropping hammers on shotguns every time they get ready to put them in the racks. Given that perspective I would most likely not train/teach/instruct the 'hammer down' mode either. The inevitability of ADs/NDs/whatever is not to be argued with when daily manipulation of shotguns by a number of people working at varying degrees of alertness is taking place.
But some are in fact teaching the hammer down mode. Please note the following:
http://www.aslet.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=559
"Cruiser Safe" and "Select-A-Slug" [snipped]
A Closer Look at Two Tactical Concepts
By Captain Marshall McDonald
[Inserted here from author's biography elsewhere on site- lpl]
ASLET is pleased to have Captain Marshall McDonald as one of our online columnists. In addition to being a longtime member and state representative for ASLET, Captain McDonald has 17 years of service with the Oklahoma County Sheriff’s Office and has been a certified trainer since 1987. He holds numerous state and national certifications in firearms, defensive tactics and law enforcement driver’s training, and has been assigned as a fulltime firearms instructor and Rangemaster for 8 years. He has served on the agency’s Tactical Unit for 15 years, and has completed assignments with the sniper unit and the entry team. For the past 10 years he has been assigned as the Operations Commander and Training Supervisor for the Tactical Unit. [End bio insert-lpl]
The “Cruiser Safe†mode and “Select-a-Slug†procedures are both vital concepts that support the efficient tactical deployment of the shotgun while maximizing safety and convenience.
Many patrol vehicle roofs, windshields and trunk lids have been unexpectedly mangled by officers who were not sure of the condition of the shotgun they were handling. The property damage pales in comparison to the risk presented to fellow officers and the public when the negligent discharge of a firearm occurs.
The term “Cruiser Safe†was coined to define the degree of readiness that a shotgun can be placed into, so that everyone will be aware of its condition. When in “Cruiser Safe†condition, the safety is in the “ON†position and the shotgun is magazine loaded with buckshot. The chamber is empty and the weapon is in a “hammer down†condition. (The hammer must be in the down position to unlock the action bars so that the action can be cycled when a round is needed)
When preparing to make the shotgun “Cruiser Safeâ€, you must first make sure that the safety is in the “ON†position. Then open the action so that you can physically and visually check the chamber and magazine tube to insure that no ammunition is present. Once you are certain that the weapon is not loaded, you may proceed with the following steps.
Slowly close the action, while keeping visual contact with the open action, insuring that no ammunition is loaded into the chamber.
Once the action is closed on an empty chamber, point the muzzle in a safe direction. (A safe direction is defined as that in which personal or property damage will not occur should there be a negligent discharge)
Move the safety to the “OFF†position, squeeze the trigger and move the safety back into the “ON†position. This step will cause the hammer to fall, releasing the action so that a round can be cycled into the chamber when needed.
Failure to successfully complete step 3 will cause the action to be locked, and will require that the action release be activated before the action can be cycled.
Fully load the magazine with buckshot.
The shotgun is now loaded “Cruiser Safe.â€
To deploy the shotgun for action, you simply cycle the action, which will load a round from the magazine, and move the safety to the “OFF†position when ready to fire.
Now, let’s assume that you have deployed the shotgun from your vehicle and have cycled the action. You determine that you do not need to employ deadly force and are no longer posed with a threat. You need to return the weapon to “Cruiser Safe,†so that it can be stored in the patrol car rack again.
Can we accomplish this without completely unloading and starting over? The answer is yes, and the procedure is not only quite simple, but closely resembles the Unloading procedures covered last month.
The following procedure must be followed to the letter to avoid a negligent discharge.
Point the muzzle in a safe direction and insure the safety is in the “ON†position.
Grasp the shotgun by the grip portion and hold the shotgun parallel to the ground.
Use your support hand to begin slowly opening the action. Your support hand thumb can be placed over the top of the barrel to assist in controlling the speed in which the action is opened.
Open the action until the nose of the shell that is being extracted from the chamber, just clears the front of the ejection port and begins to be turned outward. The action should be almost all of the way open with about ¾†of the bolt showing, near the rear of the ejection port.
Do not open the action any further. Use your support hand to remove the shell.
Carefully close the action making sure that no ammunition is being loaded into the chamber.
Once the action is closed on an empty chamber, point the weapon in a safe direction and move the safety to the “OFF†position. Squeeze the trigger and move the safety back into the “ON†position.
This step will cause the hammer to fall, releasing the action so that a round can be cycled into the chamber when needed. Failure to successfully complete step 6 will cause the action to be locked, and will require that the action release be activated before the action can be cycled.
Insert the shell that was removed from the chamber back into the magazine.
The shotgun is now returned to “Cruiser Safe.â€
We have found that requiring all shotguns to be loaded “Cruiser Safe†when stored in vehicle racks has cut down on confusion and allow everyone who accesses the weapon to have a reasonable idea of the condition of the weapon, however this does not relieve you of the responsibility of checking the condition of any weapon you handle.
["Select-a-Slug" portion of column removed- lpl]
EVIL5LITER
Member
Lol, so how do I make my SxS "cruiser ready"?
Duke of Lawnchair
Member
Shotguns are kept cruiser ready at my home.
-Jim
-Jim
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Proven, the paradigm is that over time, long mags tend to telescope shells. DOC is supposed to change ammo every month, but it doesn't always happen. I've gone up to 4 months at a time without changing things loaded one down without a prob.
Lee, thanks for the heads up. I do think I'll keep things the way they are here.
And for our folks who are in LE and have both duty and personal shotguns, I strongly recommend having the brands and kept conditions match. IE, if your duty weapon is an 870 kept as I do, your personal weapons should be 870s kept the same way. Zero dark 30 in a crisis is no time to need to recall where the safety or slide release are......
Lee, thanks for the heads up. I do think I'll keep things the way they are here.
And for our folks who are in LE and have both duty and personal shotguns, I strongly recommend having the brands and kept conditions match. IE, if your duty weapon is an 870 kept as I do, your personal weapons should be 870s kept the same way. Zero dark 30 in a crisis is no time to need to recall where the safety or slide release are......
ny32182
Member
I'm gonna bump an old thread....
With rifles and pistols, the common thought is that fully loaded mags will not fatigue the mag springs, even over the course of decades. This doesn't seem to be the case with shotguns?
Also, is the quote referring to that issue, or something else entirely?
With rifles and pistols, the common thought is that fully loaded mags will not fatigue the mag springs, even over the course of decades. This doesn't seem to be the case with shotguns?
Also, is the quote referring to that issue, or something else entirely?
I conducted my own little experiment over an 18 year period. In 1981 I bought a Mossberg 500 8 shot. I took it home, loaded it in cruiser safe, and left it loaded (except for trips to the range) with the same ammo. Result? Magazine springs get much easier to compress when left loaded for that long, but they still work. Ammo doesnt seem to telescope, and I still have a couple of the original rounds.
Worry less-train more.
Worry less-train more.
ny32182
Member
What is meant by the term "telescope" in this context?
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Telescoping is when the shell shortens in length and gains width. Think of an accordion.
My HD 870 has been kept loaded one down for most of the last two and a half decades. Ammo is changed regularly. Spring is still in good shape.
My HD 870 has been kept loaded one down for most of the last two and a half decades. Ammo is changed regularly. Spring is still in good shape.
Smoke
Member
Not surprising different agencies would have policies as to cruiser safe.
My first professional gun school taught cruiser safe as: Mag loaded, safety off, hammer down. INstructors were all current and former LEO, many form the Midwest or upper Northwest. All were in agreement.
Local PoPo do it as Dave posted, it is my understanding this may be TX DPS policy also.
I use the hammer down on empty chamber, safety off myself. But would argue either is fine, just pick one and always leave it the same way.
Practice, practice, practice.
Smoke
My first professional gun school taught cruiser safe as: Mag loaded, safety off, hammer down. INstructors were all current and former LEO, many form the Midwest or upper Northwest. All were in agreement.
Local PoPo do it as Dave posted, it is my understanding this may be TX DPS policy also.
I use the hammer down on empty chamber, safety off myself. But would argue either is fine, just pick one and always leave it the same way.
Practice, practice, practice.
Smoke
Mxyzpltk
Member
From what I've read, I understood that the reason for cruiser ready was the lack of firing ping safty in some, or most, shotguns, so that if you keep them with a load in the chamber there's the chance of an accidental discharge if droped, is that correct?, or is there any other reason for the cruiser ready condition to be teached almost everywhere?
I don't mind at all, or feel less safe keeping my m1s90 in cruiser condition, as with almost every other semi or pump, it'll be ready for action very quick, that's what training is for, and if I find myself without time to load the chamber it's probably already too late to try anything with it
I don't mind at all, or feel less safe keeping my m1s90 in cruiser condition, as with almost every other semi or pump, it'll be ready for action very quick, that's what training is for, and if I find myself without time to load the chamber it's probably already too late to try anything with it
JNewell
Member
I don't know whether that's all or most of the rationale for the empty chamber, but it's a very good rationale. Off the top of my head, I don't think any of the popular repeating shotguns have a safety that locks the firing pin, which is a fact that has been stressed in the training I've had.
Lawyerman
Member
My serious shotguns are stored mag full, hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off. Rack and shoot.
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