Help me identify a couple of pistols...

[Mr. Chitlin]

I have recently acquired a couple of handguns and know absolutely anything about them. I have been into guns for ~35 years, but these are new to me. Any help in identifying them would be appreciated. They are not for sale, I just want to know what they are, and if they are worth anything.

First one is a top break revolver. The only markings on the gun are on top of the rib in the barrel. The barrel is about 3 to 3.5 inches. Looks to probably be 38 caliber. The barrel rib says:

(a couple of missing letters then)ER Johnson's Arms and Cycle Works Fitchburg Mass USA

Next line: (more missing letters then)D Apr 6 86 Feb 15 87 May 10 87 Aug 25 96 Pats Pend

On both lines, all letters are actually capitals. This is the only markings on this gun. No caliber, nothing.

Here are a couple of pics of it...

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Now to the other pistol. It is a semi auto with about a 4" barrel. The only markings on this one are on the left side of the frame, just in front of the trigger guard. It says Mle 1935-A, and just past that above the trigger, it says 2331A and under that it says S.A.C.M. This is all there is on this one. No caliber, nothing. It was dry, so I lubed it up and it seems to work just fine.

Here are a couple of pics of it...

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Thanks for any help.

 

[ed1921]

The revolver is an Iver Johnson I'm guessing. Sorry no info.

 

[Old Fuff]

The first one is an Iver Johnson .32 revolver. The second is a French service pistol that fires a special .32 cartridge - much like the .32 ACP but longer. When I have more time I'll try to look up some additional details.

 

[BigG]

The French Modelle 35-A fires the 7.65mm French Longue cartridge which is the same of the .30 Pedersen from the WWI Pedersen device that converted the 1903 Springfield to a semi auto shooting special pistol ammunition. Scads of ammo was apparently abandoned in France upon cessation of hostilities and the thrifty French adopted it as their service caliber. There was also a Modelle 35-S pistol.

 

[mainmech48]

Basically, what Old Fluff says. I would add that the Iver Johnson could also be chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge. It was extremely popular for CCW/HD revolvers at the time. Until an unfortunate incident in Mexico, the late Rex Applegate routinely carried a S&W "Lemon Squeezer" in that caliber as a primary CCW weapon.

The French MAB 1935A auto was chambered for the 7.65 Long which was their standard service cartridge. AFAIK, it was never commercially loaded in the US.

.38 S&W ammo is still around, but I'd have the old IJ checked out by a competent gunsmith before firing it, IIWY. Same for the MAB, but you'll probably have to go to Old West Scrounger or one of the other purveyors of obsolete ammo to find cartridges.

 

[MrMurphy]

What they said.

The wheelgun's an old Iver Johnson topbreak, probably a .38 S&W (NOT a .38 Special).

The other's the old French WW2 service pistol, a Mle 1935 in 7.65mm Longue (a rather anemic round).

Incidentally the 7.65L was the round the Browning Hi-Power was originally chambered for (I think... I'll have to check that) for the French at least (all the other sane people wanted it in 9mm).

 

[BigG]

The 35-A is actually a Petter influenced design. Note the frame rails exterior to the slide. Similar to the SIG-Neuhausen P210, a high dollar target pistole.

 

[albanian]

That MAB looks like it is very comfortable in the hand. Is it?

 

[BigG]

Hi albanian. I don't think that is a MAB. My hazy memory tells me the MAB was a successor to the 35A and S. in 9mm with a double stack mag.

 

[Stasher1]

My father has an old Iver Johnson revolver similar to the one in the pic and it's chambered for some kind of short .32 .... .32 S&W perhaps?

 

[Jim K]

The revolver is an Iver Johnson, either .32 S&W or .38 S&W. Value is quite low, even ones in new condition bringing only $100 or so.

The pistol is the French Modele 1935A, in 7.65 French Long. The Pedersen device cartridge will fire in it but the French round has a longer overall length and will not fit in the Pedersen device magazine. Below is a picture of both rounds; the U.S. Pistol Cartridge, Model 1918 is on the left; the 7.65 Long is on the right.

The Modele 1935A is not a MAB. It was designed and manufactured by Societe Alsacienne de Constructions Mechaniques (SACM) in Cholte, Alsace, not by the Manufacure d'Armes Bayonne (MAB). The Modele 1935A was a beautiful, but costly pistol. It was redesigned by the Manufacture d'Armes Saint-Etienne (MAS) and was made there, by SACM, by the Manufacture d'Armes Chatellerault (MAC), and by the Manufacture d'Armes Tulle (MAT). All except SACM were government arsenals.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

About the revolver ...

The Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works manufactured revolvers from 1871 through 1978. Most were copies of S&W's top-break pocket models, but they are remembered for the original design of a transfer bar safety, that is still used By Ruger and Colt in some of their guns today.

The example you pictured is chambered to use the .32 S&W cartridge, LOADED WITH BLACK POWDER. The gun is built on I.J.'s "small frame" that was offered in either ,32 S&W or .22 R.F. (not any .38's). The barrel, measured from the cylinder face to the muzzle is most likely 3 inches. The cylinder holds 5 cartridges. It was probably nickel plated at one time, but that finish has been striped or polished away.

It was likely made between 1897 to 1908, but without a serial number I can't be more specific. That number is likely on the frame under the grips, and may include letters as well as numbers. In 1905 it cost $6.00 (when a Colt Single action was $13.00 and a similar S&W pocket revolver was $10.00) During the period of manufacture Iver Johnson made over 900,000 of these - which far surpassed both Colt and S&W's numbers for any similar product. The gun's present value is what ever you can get for it, but I would suggest a figure around $50.00 or so.

I'll save the French model1935/s automatic for another time.

 

[Mr. Chitlin]

Hey, gents, thanks for the info. That is great info on the revolver and pistol.

As I stated, they aren't for sale and they will go into the back corners of the safe, probably never to see daylight again. At least it gives me a little background on what they are.

Again, thanks to all who replied!!

 

[Jim K]

OK, I'll post pics of the French Model 1935S, the redesigned and cheaper version of the Model 1935A.

 

[Ala Dan]

When You Can Find Them

cartridges for the French self-loader are very expensive; as the caliber
is now obsolete.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[GaryP]

I purchased a French 1935A in very good condition back around 1978 for $25. It came with 2 boxes of 7.65L mm all steel cartridges (bullet & case)! I could not find ammo anywhere for this weapon at the time, but found a gun shop that would convert the weapon to .32acp for $100. I passed and sold it for what I had in it. Many years later I saw vintage 7.65L all steel ammo for sale at $50 dollars for 20. The bottom line on this one is the original all steel vintage ammo is worth more per box than the gun!

Gary