Help me out please- where did "volumetric grains" come from?

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'd sure love to see an old book on shooting sports from the mid 1800's and see what is written about this.

How about this. A page from a reprint of the 1905/1906 Smith and Wesson catalog. In those days S&W sold ammunition too. Notice that the description of each cartridge includes the words 'contains XX grains of black powder'. It doesn't say anything about equivalency or water or anything else. It says 'contains XX grains of black powder. That sure sounds like a weight measurement to me.





This catalog is full of specifications for the cartridges S&W was selling in 1905 and 1906. Here is the page describing three 38 caliber cartridges.

It can range from fluffy homemade "stuff" to any number of manufactured inconsistencies comprised of only who knows what the its exact ingredients or characteristics are.
That's why I believe that a scientifically based volumetric powder measure wouldn't be based on a weighed volume with as much variation as black powder has but rather on a precisely weighed volume of water.
The main source of imprecision is the black powder itself.
Folks can weigh it all they want, but even each granule has a different shape, size and burn charactistic.
Maybe or maybe not so different enough that it matters anyway...

The assumptions you are making about the nature of Black Powder and how it is manufactured are mind boggling. Black Powder has been around for about 500 years. It has been poked, prodded, and studied for all of that time. In that time we have learned a great deal about how to make it and what makes it tick. Some of the techniques used to specify it and grade it in the late 19th Century were ingenious and easily stand the tests of time with modern chemists. Yes, each granule does have a different shape. No, they are not different sizes, the screens used to separate the different granulations are very precise. Granules of Black Powder having different shapes has nothing to do with the burn rate when a large quantity of granules are burned. It all evens out very nicely.

Yes, the formula for Black Powder did vary over time, but as early as 1781 the British settled on the same basic formula that is in use today, 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur.

My Dad was a chemist. Right out of college he worked for DuPont, then he spent the war years in Kansas working for Hercules Powder, which later became the present Alliant powder company. He used to make Black Powder as a profession. He told me long ago that the standard formula for Black Powder was 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur, which by the way is the same formula the US Army specified for all their military powder in the second half of the 19th Century.

 

[Jim Watson]

And yet...
The source and preparation of the charcoal seems to make a good deal of difference. The Swiss are very proud of their Alder and really prize wood cut after a wet spell.
The time in the mill matters, too. Goex, before being bought out by Hodgdon, was getting a lot of respect for Express powder differing only in spending a lot more time under the rollers. But time is money and they are not now making Express.

One gunzine writer found that a can of duPont of WW I era gave 100 fps higher velocity, 1/3 smaller groups, and less fouling than fresh Goex in his trial of the .32 Winchester Special concept of smokeless from the factory, black at home.

Another says, "load your express rifles with Kik, it is the closest thing on the market to the old Curtiss and Harvey No 6."

Maybe we don't know it all yet.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Jim, you are of course correct. I too am aware of the differences in the charcoal that Swiss and Schuetzen use.

My point was that there is no magic or hocus-pocus in making Black Powder. It has been researched very thoroughly and studied for hundreds of years.

I don't think it is so much a question of we don't know it all yet, more like we have forgotten some of what we used to know.

 

[Jim Watson]

Probably a better way to put it.
As long as we don't get into a Dark Age in which we not only cannot do things we used to do, we don't even remember that we once could. (Jerry Pournelle's definition.)

 

[arcticap]

Yes, each granule does have a different shape. No, they are not different sizes, the screens used to separate the different granulations are very precise. Granules of Black Powder having different shapes has nothing to do with the burn rate when a large quantity of granules are burned. It all evens out very nicely.

There are 4F fines mixed in with every pound of commercial black powder no matter what the granulation marked on the label is.
The 4F is not uniformly distributed throughout each pound, and the 4F does not burn at the same rate as the rest of the non-uniform granules.
So it's not true that the composition of granules is precisely the same for each pound, or for each charge for that matter.
But folks should keep on weighing their charges if weight matters to them.

As far as the manufactured S&W cartridges containing weighed powder charges, how does that relate to whether a volumetric grain is real or a myth, or if there's a standard definition for it or not?
Some folks measure with Lee scoop measures and we know that CC's exist.
CC's are recognized as a unit of volume measurement too.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

As far as how manufactured S&W cartridges contained weighed powder charges.
How does that relate to whether a volumetric grain is real or a myth, or if there's a standard definition for it or not?
Some folks measure with Lee scoop measures and we know that CC's exist.

Just trying to illustrate that historically, the amount of powder in a loaded cartridge was verified by weight, not some mystical, non-existent unit of measure.

Funny thing is, I use Lee dippers all the time when I am working up a new load with Black Powder. But I always refer to the amount of powder dipped as exactly what the dipper says, CCs. Not that other thing. If I want to know how much powder I scooped so I can figure out how many pounds of powder I need to buy, I weigh the dipped powder. I don't have a table for how many CCs there are in a pound of powder.

******

I said way back in the other post that the debate over grains vs grains-volume is still raging. Looks like I was right.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

As long as we don't get into a Dark Age in which we not only cannot do things we used to do, we don't even remember that we once could. (Jerry Pournelle's definition.)

Kind of like saying that the Egyptians were not smart enough to build the pyramids by themselves, they had to have help from outer space.

 

[Lunie]

Driftwood, I don't know how you are coming to the conclusion that each charge of powder was "weighed". From a manufacturing perspective, it's greatly favorable to dispense things like blackpowder by volume. There would have been no need to individually weigh charges as they were loaded... And as others have pointed out, volume of propellant is much more important in black powder cartridges, as opposed to smokeless cartridges.

Can you weigh samples? Of course. Can your advertising gurus put some nice numbers on the box? Of course. Does it mean that each of your cartridges really has exactly 23 grains of powder? They won't.

The volume of water weighed in grains would be an excellent reference. It's even more convenient to use if the specific gravity (relative density) of blackpowder is near 1. Water is pretty ubiquitous as a reference point. It's everywhere, it's a liquid and "incompressible", and it makes for an easy point of comparison. Is that how "grains of volume" was derived? Possibly. But I don't think anyone has presented proof that it was or wasn't. Bluntly, it's the only semblance of a standardized definition, as the density of blackpowder will never be as consistent.

 

[TheRodDoc]

Loyalist Dave Was right about the measure system but didn't mention that it was all based on water volume which arcticap Added in his posts.

But what no one said is that powder has varied in weight since the beginning depending if it was corned or not.
The density is what makes the big difference. How much it is compressed when made.

Very large hyd. presses of 150 ton or more are used to press the powder.

First the three ingredients were mixed in an edge runner. Then the hard packed powder slabs go from there to a breaker to crush it to a meal again.

The meal is stacked into the form or a (cheese), 2 or 2 1/2 ft. square and 3 or 4 ft. high, consisting of layers of powder 1 to 2 in. thick, separated by plates of copper or vulcanite. The press reduces the bulk of the powder nearly one half, and delivers it in sheets five eighths of an inch to an inch thick, which, in hardness, luster, and fracture, resemble thick slates. The degree of pressure to be given is one of the most important considerations in the process of manufacture; since the ultimate density of the powder is determined by it, and this in turn determines the rate of combustion. By merely varying the degree of pressure, the powder may be made either violently and destructively explosive, or mild and easy in its action.
The absolute density ranges from 1.60 to 1.80, the most common figure being about 1.75.

Different company's use different density's. And thus the major difference in weight.

 

[hang fire]

Think this all started and picked up steam when the subs came on scene. It is like another posted about shotshells and BP dram equivalent. But here, the sub makers made their products to be loaded to volumetric equivalent for BP, as that was easy for BP shooters to understand and they had the BP measuring tools in hand .

 

[J-Bar]

How about this. A page from a reprint of the 1905/1906 Smith and Wesson catalog. In those days S&W sold ammunition too. Notice that the description of each cartridge includes the words 'contains XX grains of black powder'. It doesn't say anything about equivalency or water or anything else. It says 'contains XX grains of black powder. That sure sounds like a weight measurement to me.





This catalog is full of specifications for the cartridges S&W was selling in 1905 and 1906. Here is the page describing three 38 caliber cartridges.







The assumptions you are making about the nature of Black Powder and how it is manufactured are mind boggling. Black Powder has been around for about 500 years. It has been poked, prodded, and studied for all of that time. In that time we have learned a great deal about how to make it and what makes it tick. Some of the techniques used to specify it and grade it in the late 19th Century were ingenious and easily stand the tests of time with modern chemists. Yes, each granule does have a different shape. No, they are not different sizes, the screens used to separate the different granulations are very precise. Granules of Black Powder having different shapes has nothing to do with the burn rate when a large quantity of granules are burned. It all evens out very nicely.

Yes, the formula for Black Powder did vary over time, but as early as 1781 the British settled on the same basic formula that is in use today, 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur.

My Dad was a chemist. Right out of college he worked for DuPont, then he spent the war years in Kansas working for Hercules Powder, which later became the present Alliant powder company. He used to make Black Powder as a profession. He told me long ago that the standard formula for Black Powder was 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur, which by the way is the same formula the US Army specified for all their military powder in the second half of the 19th Century.

Driftwood, those are neat photos of old cartridges.

But I find it hard to imagine that when those old cartridges were being produced in 1905 Smith and Wesson weighed each charge individually before putting it in the case. I' m guessing they had some kind of volumetric dispenser they used to drop powder into each case. Or maybe they just filled the case and seated the bullet...

It just strains credulity to think each charge was weighed.

 

[Noz]

We're doing a fine job of picking the fly sh-t out of the pepper!

How about just saying: Use a volume of powder that represents a weight of X grains?
This is what all powder measures that are not connected to a scale do.
This is a very dead horse. You can beat it every week from now on out and it will still stink the same.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I did not mean to say that each cartridge was being weighed as it was being filled. Of course they were probably mass produced with some sort of dispenser that portioned the powder out by volume, no different than dumping cheerios in a box. I too usually load my BP cartridges by volume.

What I was attempting to illustrate is that at least according to that catalog from 1905/1906 S&W was calling out the charge in their cartridges as grains. Pure and simple. Nothing about grains/volume.

The original question was "where did "volumetric grains" come from?"

So I posted photos of the type of powder measure that was used to approximate the volume of a standard Black Powder charge that could also be used to measure out an appropriate charge of Black Powder substitute.

As I have been trying to say, I first started messing about with Black Powder in Cap & Ball revolvers in 1968. I never heard anything about grains-volume back then. It was just grains. If you wanted to know how much powder you were using you weighed it, and the scale told you how many grains you were using as a straight grain reading. All the magazines I used to read back then simply talked about Black Powder charges in grains, I do not recall anything being said about Grains-Volume.

I just did a little bit of research, and it appears that Pyrodex, the first of the Black Powder substitutes was not introduced until 1976.

http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html

So, I am going to shut up now, after saying one more time, and it appears as if at least a few posters agree with me, this whole Grain-Volume thing started when Pyrodex was first introduced as a way to simplify how much of the new Sub to put into your chambers so you would have about the same affect as shooting real Black Powder.

I'm done now.

 

[arcticap]

The original question was "where did "volumetric grains" come from?"

There is the possibility that the term "volumetric grains" was coined right here on THR...or we could give the credit to the father of the internet...Al Gore!

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The adjustable brass volumetric black powder measure I have is marked off for grains of FFg.

I have also heard and read "volumetric equivalent" measure in dealing with BP substitutes, such as the sense that X volume of Pyrodex RS is equivalent to X volume of BP FFg weighing so-many grains and that X volume of Pyrodex P is equivalent to X volume of BP FFFg weighing so-many grains. Like the Lee 1.9cc dipper measure of Pyrodex P (23.1 grains) is the volumetric equivalent of (gives the same power as) 1.9cc BP FFFg weighing 30.9 grains.

 

[BCRider]

Come on guys, no one ever said that every charge must be weighed. Other than match rifle shooters I don't know of anyone that weighs each charge. We weigh samples from our powder measure which drops or dips amounts by volume to confirm that we have the right weight then we use the volume measure for the actual loading. Be it a dipper or a big dispenser. The manufacturers do it that way too.

The question is about if there's a bonified volume grains or not and if it was a proper standard from the 18th and 19th centuries that we've "misplaced" and now only semi understand.

From all the posts it would appear that the powder measures intended for black powder are a convienience intended to dispense something very close to the grains of weight that matches the markings on the measures. The fact that Driftwood's weight testing of his powder measure so closely matches the calibration suggests this. It would be interesting to note how closely a volume of black powder is in weight to the same volume of water too. But the indications so far are that black powder is very close in density to that of water.

 

[Jim Watson]

There are 4F fines mixed in with every pound of commercial black powder no matter what the granulation marked on the label is.
The 4F is not uniformly distributed throughout each pound, and the 4F does not burn at the same rate as the rest of the non-uniform granules.

Which is why some target shooters "sock" their powder. Pour some in an old sock and shake it so the fines sift out through the cloth. I have seen listings for actual sized sieves to rescreen powder, too.

Noz says: "How about just saying: Use a volume of powder that represents a weight of X grains?" which is what we are actually doing, but it is easier for the masses to just say "grains volume."

Oh well.
As Humpty Dumpty said to Alice: "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

 

[arcticap]

First known use of "Volumetric" - 1857

I like and prefer to use the term volumetric grains instead of grains volume, volume grains, or grains by volume etc...
It efficiently conveys the idea of just like what it is meant to mean, the volume of grains that results from using a calibrated powder measure, as opposed to the scaled weight of a powder.
And another interesting tidbit that I just discovered about the word volumetric is that according to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, its first known use was in 1857.
So it's certainly not a recently invented word by any means.

Definition of VOLUMETRIC

: of, relating to, or involving the measurement of volume

— vol·u·met·ri·cal·ly adverb

First Known Use of VOLUMETRIC
1857

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/volumetric

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't see the word "grains" in there anywhere.

 

[arcticap]

Below are those pesky grains expressed as a volumetric measurement again!
And without a doubt the volume of water grains ~equals the 9mm case capacity in volumetric grains of powder to within an infinitesimal amount.

The 9x19mm Parabellum has 0.86 ml (13.3 grains H2O) cartridge case capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

 

[mustanger]

I have been reading a little about making one's own bp, and the first thing that struck me was, that when you grate a ball of the concoction through a window screen, by rubbing back and forth, the consistancy of the granuales may not be all that consistant in size. Different sized granuals would burn at a slightly different rate. When I pour bp into a powder measure I notice that I don't get the amount the same to the granuale. However taking a scale to the field would be tedious. I am thinking that they in the old days) found using a volumetric measure worked just as well. Or should I say well enough. They wouldn't need a graduated measure just something that held the amount of powder that shot good in thier gun. Some people frown on in-line mls because that's not what they had back then, well they didn't scale thier powder either. I say to each his own. If it works good for you, and you like it, go for it. Like arcticap was indicating, precision is not exactly the black powder way. Getting MOA groups the old fashioned way is a bit of a challenge. But if you can then you ARE good. I understand there were time when they just poured powder down the barrel from the horn and dropped a ball down with out a patch. Now that would be imprecise.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I have been reading a little about making one's own bp, and the first thing that struck me was, that when you grate a ball of the concoction through a window screen, by rubbing back and forth, the consistancy of the granuales may not be all that consistant in size. Different sized granuals would burn at a slightly different rate. When I pour bp into a powder measure I notice that I don't get the amount the same to the granuale. However taking a scale to the field would be tedious. I am thinking that they in the old days) found using a volumetric measure worked just as well. Or should I say well enough. They wouldn't need a graduated measure just something that held the amount of powder that shot good in thier gun. Some people frown on in-line mls because that's not what they had back then, well they didn't scale thier powder either. I say to each his own. If it works good for you, and you like it, go for it. Like arcticap was indicating, precision is not exactly the black powder way. Getting MOA groups the old fashioned way is a bit of a challenge. But if you can then you ARE good. I understand there were time when they just poured powder down the barrel from the horn and dropped a ball down with out a patch. Now that would be imprecise.

Oh my goodness. I said I was done with this thread, but I just can't keep silent.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER MAKING YOUR OWN BLACK POWDER.

In the first place, you will be violating Federal Laws, and if your house blows up your insurance will be voided. Perhaps you heard that Goex had another explosion a year or two ago, completely destroying one of their production buildings? And they are the professionals who know what they are doing.

You don't grate a ball of powder through a window screen. The corning process breaks up the powder cake in a ball mill. And it is always done by remote control with nobody in the building. Then, when the cake has been granualted, it is screened by gravity, not by grating.


*******


I tend to disagree a little bit with your statement about precision not exactly being the Black Powder way. No matter how you measure your powder, some very impressive accuracy can be achieved.

Nobody who was familiar with Black Powder ever poured the powder directly from the horn and dropped a ball on top. A time honored technique was to place the ball in the palm of the hand, and then pour powder over it. The correct charge for any ball would just cover the ball. Not extremely precise, but actually surprising accuracy could be achieved this way. And of course paper cartridges existed long before modern metallic cartridges existed. Pre-made in controlled conditions, a ball was glued to a cylinder of paper and the cylinder was filled with powder. In the field the paper was bitten open and the charge poured down the bore, followed by the ball and the crumpled up paper for wadding. In flintlock days a small portion of the powder was reserved for the pan, in C&B days, all the powder went down the bore. This was very common and did away with the need for measuring powder in the field at all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge

 

[arcticap]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER MAKING YOUR OWN BLACK POWDER.

In the first place, you will be violating Federal Laws...

I disagree out of respect for the 2nd Amendment and for the sake of objectivity. Here's excerpts from a thread on the Muzzle Loading Forum posted by a reputable gunmaker, Cowboy CS, a.k.a. http://stolzergunsmithing.webs.com/

You should really read through the exemptions, before making the statement that it is illegal to make Black Powder. There are clear cut exemptions written to allow for making and storing black powder for a variety of uses. I have been making my own BP for years and have even had a visit from the BATFE and with a little polite conversation and an examination of my storage area they left with no further action. If it was illegal the BATFE would be out rounding up every unlicensed rocket builder in the country, as well as every small pyrotechnics company.

****

US Title 18 section 845 exceptions

(4) small arms ammunition and components thereof;
(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to
exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic
fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers,
intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or
cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section
921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique
devices as exempted from the term "destructive device" in section
921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code;

That pretty well covers most things related to Black Powder shooting.

****

Claude and I had a private conversation about this topic a while back, and he modified the general Forum rules to reflect what we had talked about, and I respect his wishes in not wanting to potentially promote what may or may not be illegal activity. I consider that wise on his part, saves him any future headaches.

But I see this every so often that the idea of making black powder at home is illegal. So I take the opportunity to correct it and point out that at a federal level there is no law that says making your own BP is illegal, the law and the exceptions that are written into it are specifically worded regarding criminal penalties with "intent" attached to them. Now at a state level it varies from state to state, and I would encourage anybody interested in pursuing this type of activity to contact a lawyer in their state and verify the legality of it, get it in writing with the law(statutes) clearly quoted.

I would also add that this is not an activity that I would encourage people to pursue without a great deal of research and with the understanding that it is a process with substantial potential for injury or death.

C

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/f...d/232385/post/699945/hl//fromsearch/1/#699945

The excerpts below are from the thread:

Making Black Powder

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=565878&highlight=federal

Making Black powder is not against Federal law. State and local Laws may apply.

I've made my own for over 20 years for everything from skyrockets and 6-inch Italian cannister shells to propellant for my muzzle loaders in 500 gram batches. If you are trained properly and follow the safety and housekeeping rules you will most likely never have an accident. If you do have an accident and your ball mill is isolated, the damage will be nothing more than a destroyed ball mill!
Federal law does not disallow you from making your own BP but rather the regulations are strict about storage...that is where the license is needed.
Four good places to start is to join the Pyrotechnic Guild International and check out Skylighter.com for good advice...also check out American Fireworks News and Firefox.com

Click on my personal referral link below for free registration to the Muzzle Loading Forum:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/index.php?referral/4225/