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Help PAC N Arms defend against ATF

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Ryanxia, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Well-Known Member

    Last fall I brought to light a situation at our local gun shop PAC N Arms regarding the ATF attempting to mass copy every customer's info, even when no violation had taken place. This is apparently common practice among many gun shops, but most don’t know their Rights and some don’t see it as a concern.

    A national firearms registration is illegal and something we should all be concerned about. 18 USC 926 of U.S. Federal law categorically prohibits anyone in the Justice Department (including the ATF) from seizing any records or documents other than those constituting material evidence of a violation of law.
    The ATF is recording as much data on gun owners as they can, which never leads to anything good. The ATF backed down in Alaska and issued an apology when an Alaskan Senator got involved but we’ve had no such luck here in Maine. Furthermore, after PAC N Arms refusal of mass copying records the ATF has taken to trying to shut them down with every false allegation under the sun they can think of, in the hopes that something will stick.

    PAC N Arms is challenging the ATF and this will be heading into a court room in the near future. The goal is to set a legal precedent for gun shops and other FFL’s to deny the copying of people’s personal information (DOB, SSN, address, ethnicity, exact gun purchased, etc.) when there is no violation or crime committed. If even 1 out of 5 gun shops did this it would make a national registration (already illegal) very difficult, especially in states where private sales are legal.

    WHAT THIS MEANS TO YOU – While awareness is important, PAC N Arms needs YOUR help in the fight to Defend Freedom. The legal fees to go toe to toe with a corrupt federal agency are staggering. The owner is sending out a call for help to fellow Americans that still care about securing our Freedom and the Freedom of future generations.

    ANY donation is appreciated, but in an effort to raise money quickly, PAC N Arms has setup a program where any donations over $50.00 will earn the donator their next firearm purchase at cost (plus tax, c.c. fee if applicable and shipping if you can’t come pick it up). Depending on the chosen firearm you could actually end up saving more money than you donate! (Personally speaking, I know his prices to be extremely competitive to begin with so I think this will be good for everyone involved).

    HOW TO DONATE – 3 ways:
    • You can mail a check/money order to PAC N Arms 125 Milton Avenue Sanford, ME 04027
    • You can call the main shop number at (207) 324-1112 and give a credit/debit card over the phone, make sure you tell them you’re calling to donate to the PAC N Arms Defense Fund
    • You can stop in and donate in cash

    If your donation is over $50 be sure to include your full name and contact info, also keep record of the amount you donated and the date for verification later. Your information will be kept confidential and not shared with anyone.

    There will also be raffles and t-shirts coming up which I will let everyone know about.

    This man is putting his business and livelihood on the line for his customers and Americans everywhere.
    Thanks for your help, it means a lot.

    See Part 1 for several pages of background information. No other details of the case may be provided at this time.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  2. Twiki357

    Twiki357 Well-Known Member

    I think it’s a lot more common than what a lot of shops will admit.

    I was talking to the owner of a local FFL about a year ago who told me that during the ATF exams they would photocopy all his 4473’s since the prior exam. He now has computerized records and they have him down load his records to a flash drive. I commented that that was illegal and his comment was “When the ATF says jump, he jumps or loses his FFL.” With the number of FFLs in my area, I suspect this is a general procedure though none of the others will admit it.
  3. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Well-Known Member

    Does anybody really have an expectation of privacy when it comes to Forms 4473? I'm not surprised or shocked by this.
  4. dalek1967

    dalek1967 Member

    Do they have a website with this info or anything? I'm a member on a social site and would like to post a link to a site for this if there is one. It would also make it easier for folks to donate too.

    Just curious.
  5. texasgun

    texasgun Well-Known Member

    Yeah... "donating" $ to a FFL?

    I'd rather "donate" $5o to my local FFL by buying some magazines or ammo....
  6. JSH1

    JSH1 Well-Known Member

    If the ATF asks a FFL for permission to copy their records and the FFL says OK, that is not seizing records. It is also legal.
  7. gunnutery

    gunnutery Well-Known Member

    This is where our complacency and apathy really shows through. I'll admit the first though that crossed my mind was "well, it's a legal battle very far from my home." :banghead:

    It may be some far off legal battle, but the potential ramifications of a positive outcome could reach far and wide into our locales. If we turn a blind eye now, we may as well get our walking shoes on to go get in line to hand in our "evil guns". I will be contributing some when my credit card clears in a couple days. This FFL isn't just standing up for his Maine customers, he's making a stand for all of us by filing this action.

    I will also add that just because they ask doesn't mean that they have the legal ability to compile a registration. There are certain things that LE can ask for without it constituting a search, but DOJ and affiliates are forbidden to compile searchable databases of firearm owners.
  8. texasgun

    texasgun Well-Known Member


    EXACTLY !!

    ATF asks and FFL gives the records... this is NOT seizing.

    Seizing would be ATF marching in, cracking open the door and carrying the records into their truck....

    If the legal battle is that "well prepared" from the FFL side... it's a waste of money. Won't make it far.

    They also would have to prove in court that declining to hand over records to the ATF resulted in extra unfair scrutiny by the ATF :rolleyes: good luck with that. Unless they have a ATF whisteblower... it's going to be tough
  9. JSH1

    JSH1 Well-Known Member

    A scanned copy of a 4473 is not a searchable database. The ATF does gun tracing by hand because they are not allowed to create a database.
  10. texasgun

    texasgun Well-Known Member

    there is so much inability to actually comprehend the law in this post... it's not even funny anymore.

    by all means - if you want to "donate" money to that specific FFL... please go ahead and do so (regardless of the fact that the NRA could use that money in bigger fights better...)... but don't be naive... the ATF is NOT (as seen by law) creating a "database" by merely copying individual records.

    also... we constantly babble about "oooh... enough laws on the books... time to enforce what's already on the books" ... yet when the ATF checks FFL records or has undercover folks at gunshows trying to see if FFL sell without a background check... people freak out here. A little incoherent...
  11. dalek1967

    dalek1967 Member

    It may not be computer searchable but it is searchable by hand. Keep in mind, before computers came along, finger prints were searched by hand too. It was slow and time consuming but it worked. Those were used for decades. Even now with computers, they are still confirmed by humans so that they can testify in court if needed. Personally, I don't want them copying my gun purchases at all. I don't like them even being able to SEE them.

    I think the biggest point of this is simple. We don't trust the Government. I know I don't trust them one bit.
  12. hartcreek

    hartcreek member

    Are all of you so computer illiterate that you do not know how to make a database?

    The 4473 is a standardized form being such it is simple to transfer the information with OCR software and bingo you have a database that can be searched by which ever field is chosen.
  13. gunnutery

    gunnutery Well-Known Member

    Obviously not, but if they have so much time to scan every single 4473, then they also have time to enter all info of said 4473s into a searchable database. I heard an ATF agent on an NPR radio interview explain that they have to search them by hand for getting evidence in a criminal case and that they're NOT making a database. Ohhh...wellll, an ATF agent said.... That specific agent may actually believe everything he said, it doesn't mean that the agency is infallible or perfect.

    Lest we forget Fast and Furious, or bribing inner city kids to hang out in their fake stores with drugs, or losing multiple full auto weapons, or the latest raid on the Ares store, despite a no contact order.

    All they need is to convince a couple ambitious agents that "it's what's best for our country." Data-mining was taking place before it was "legal" in the patriot act too.
  14. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Well-Known Member

    Well said, this fight is for our cause, not specific individuals.
    And yes it is not illegal if the FFL allows it, problem is that most think they HAVE to allow it.

    The ATF is already using these records and going to people and saying, 'hey we see you bought several guns this past year, what are you up to?' They're starting to harass and intimidate people for exercising their Second Amendment Rights.

    If you think the ATF can do no wrong then by all means that's your Right.
    If you think your money would be better spent donating to the NRA, then do it. This is a fight for all of our Rights, so every little bit helps.

    Dalek1967 - There will be info up on the main PAC N Arms site shortly, but due to the high processing fees there is no way at this time to use a website to donate.
  15. JSH1

    JSH1 Well-Known Member

    I am well aware of what can be done with OCR software. There is a huge difference between what is possible to do and what is being done. The OP claims, without any proof, that the ATF IS creating a registry.
  16. texasgun

    texasgun Well-Known Member

    "The ATF is already using these records and going to people and saying, 'hey we see you bought several guns this past year, what are you up to?' They're starting to harass and intimidate people for exercising their Second Amendment Rights. "

    Any proof /source?

    And don't come with guys on the Texas / Mexico border who are on record for buying a dozen of ARs while living in a trailer and "losing" them all the time...
  17. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Well-Known Member

    JSH1 - Mass copying of people's info typically isn't done to throw it out a few days later. Regardless of what they do today, allowing them to record every gun sale/transaction will eventually lead to registration, which is why there is a law prohibiting it (18 US 926).

    Texasgun - I wish I could share more detail/proof but I cannot. I'm trying to make fellow gun owners aware of someone who is standing for our Rights, and it is something that many of us agree with and are working to see it through.
    Unfortunately legal representation does not allow at this time many of the details to be released.
  18. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

    I'm a natural skeptic and cynic. I nearly always suspect... no, I expect... the worst case scenario when it comes to other people and government. It's a "conditioned response". I have no doubts whatsoever that a national database has been in the making for a long time... and it isn't technically difficult. Regarding time spent; Ever heard of automatic feed scanners and OCR? Also, how many man-hours does the NSA spend listening to phone calls and monitoring forums and emails? To those who believe other folks are perfectly honest and governments have no hidden agendas... more power to you... but expect to be surprised when you're proven naive.
  19. atomd

    atomd Well-Known Member

    As soon as you store all that information (in any format), it is then a registry since it can be used to look up this information at a later date. They are scanning everything they can, not just one specific 4473. You would only store things you don't need so they can be accessed if you need them. Sounds like a registry to me.
  20. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Well-Known Member

    Well put atomd.
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