Henry-Martini or Winchester 73 ar Rorke's Drift?

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roscoe

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I was just reading Carnage and Culture by Victor Hanson and he comments on the fact that the combination of the conservatism of the British military establishment and the fact that the British Army was the ugly stepchild (compared to the Navy) meant that the soldiers had an obsolete rifle (the Henry-Martini) when fighting the Zulus in 1879. He specifically mentions the repeating Winchester 73 as a more modern (and possibly effective) alternative.

My question is - do you think this was a handicap? My understanding of the Henry-Martini is that it shoots a big piece of lead a long distance, especially compared to the 44-40. Plus, it can attach a bayonet. Hanson suggests that, in addition to the 800 dead Zulu on the scene, hundreds died from their wounds having walked or crawled miles away, a fact he attributes to the heavy, soft bullet of the Martini.

On the other hand, much of the fighting at Rorke's drift was essentially at the fence, where a repeater would be most handy. And at point-blank range, a 44-40 would likely cause a fair bit of trouble.

Hanson says that 20,000 rounds were fired by fewer than 100 British soldiers against some 2,000 Zulus. That's a bit more than 200 rounds per soldier. Using a lever-action rifle, that would be fairly few rounds over 12 hours of fighting. I have fired more than 100 rounds from my Winchester 94 (30-30) in a long afternoon of target practice (ouch), without the incentive of thousands of angry Zulus in my face.

The chapter in the book reminds me of Winchester 73 with Jimmy Stewart where the US Cavalry is surrounded by Sioux (led by Rock Hudson as Young Bull, no less). They only have single-shot Springfields and are saved by civilian Stewart (and a friend) having repeating Winchesters.

Although they got massacred at Isandhlwana because of poor tactics, needless to say, the British did not need to be saved at Rorke's Drift. But I would bet that having two dozen soldiers with Winchesters would have come in handy.
 
If you can't defeat an enemy armed with sharp sticks when you have a gun, even if it is only a single shot, then you probably don't deserve to rule the world.:D

From what I understand, the Zulus for the most part, didn't have guns. The American Indians had them almost from the start. We armed them to help us fight our other enemies.

To answer your question, yes, I think the Winchester repeaters would have been more effective only because more bullets never hurt anyone.:D Except the people that are being shot at with the bullets.
 
Actually, the Zulu did have a couple thousand rifles, having just collected them from the dead British at Isandhlwana. They just didn't know how to use them effectively. But 20-1 odds are pretty rough, even if you have single-shot rifles.
 
The use of the single shot rifle for military use really ended in a battle between the Turks and Russians in, I believe ,1870. The Turks used single shots for distance but when the Russians charged they switched to Winchester repeaters. The Russians were soundly defeated. There were many new designs that came out in the last quarter of the 19th century between repeating rifles of many kinds and then the introduction of smokeless powder. And tactics changed too. The Brits did have gatlings in Africa and used them effectively but for some reason didn't think they would work effectively against europeans !!! As a result the Brits had few machine guns in WWII while the Germans had many.
 
"Defeat an enemy armed with sharp sticks"?

Actually, until the Brits got Maxim machine guns, the Zulu's did pretty much whatever they wanted in South Africa.

The Zulu army was just that, a highly disciplined professional army, who's commanders started out as "Privates" and worked their way up to General.

Using nothing but spears and short swords, the Zulu's trashed out a number of firearm equipped civilized army's.
 
20,000 rounds sounds like a lot, but its not really, maybe 40 or 50 standard sized ammo cans. I'd always heard that the Zulu strategy in that battle was to expend troops until the Brits ran out of bullets. Running out of bullets might have been easier with repeating rifles. :what:
 
First, it's a Martini-Henry, not the other way around. Martini action, Henry rifling I believe. This is the same reason the Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield rifles have two names.


Yes, the M-H wasn't technologically the most advanced weapon in the world at the time, but neither was the Springfield Trapdoor (our equivalent) and military thought at the time was have long range heavy bullets and AIM not a levergun with a lot of rounds and just spray. Sort of the same reasoning that put a 3-round burst limiter on the M16 (guys in Vietnam were hosing through magazines too fast and not hitting anything). And 30 years before, they'd been using muzzleloaders..... Armies are not exactly the leap-forward type when it comes to new weaponry for the most part. Single shot breechloaders were "enough" to the senior generals and tactics didn't have to change too much.

Having a couple Gatlings or say, sergeants armed with leveractions, probably would have made a difference (the Gatling certainly would!) but using the tactics the Brits did (volley fire by section) keeping up a rolling barrage isn't too hard. And considering the majority of the Zulus did NOT have firearms, it worked. Yeah, they had captured a bunch of rifles, but they only had a couple hundred Zulus who knew which end the bullet comes out of, and they sat back and tried long range fire. Against men behind barricades, a low fire rate and bad shooters means the Zulus didn't cause many casualties from rifle fire.

If all the Zulus had rifles, the Brits would have been slaughtered. Repeaters would have been handy there (like at Plevna in Turkey).
 
My understanding of the Henry-Martini is that it shoots a big piece of lead a long distance, especially compared to the 44-40. Plus, it can attach a bayonet.
Winchester made a "musket" variant that had a longer barrel with full stock and handguards, and furnished with a bayonet. I think it would have come quite in handy.
 
the '73 fired a cartridge which is equivalent in power to a pistol cartridge. The high cost, limited range and stopping power, and mechanical complexity of these arms made them unattractive to foreign armies, just as the U.S. Army declined to buy them. Actually the Zulus engaged at Rorke's Drift had not fought at Isandhlwana and so had no opportunity to scavenge arms from the battlefield. Under the unusual circumstances of this battle (about as common as the Alamo) repeaters might have been useful, but military planners have to take the broad view.
Whilst arguably the Rolling Block was better, the Martini was by no means greatly inferior to the other designs of the period, and the Francotte improvements, such as the block mechanism coming out as a packaged unit, made it better still although they were never applied to British service ones.
see http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/index.html
 
There's little or no question that if the Brits had been armed with Winchester repeaters, the battle would have been over in an hour or two, and Zulu casualties would have been double what they were. Brit casualties would have been nil.

OTOH, if Custer's men had been armed with Winchester's, they would probably have won the Battle Of The Little Bighorn, even though they were being led by an arrogant egomaniac.

Short range firepower defeats long range slow fire in every battle where the two have come up against each other.

In the American Civil War, cavalry engagements were usually won by whichever unit had the most revolvers, with sabres and single shot carbines having only limited effect in comparison to the revolvers.
 
OTOH, if Custer's men had been armed with Winchester's, they would probably have won the Battle Of The Little Bighorn...
Probably not, as the Indians had a goodly number of Winchesters AND had Custer's command seriously outnumbered.


In the American Civil War, cavalry engagements were usually won by whichever unit had the most revolvers, with sabres and single shot carbines having only limited effect in comparison to the revolvers.
True as far as it goes, but calvary deployed against accurate long range firepower of massed infantry or artillery rarely got close enough to bring their firepower OR sabers to bear. Accurate, long range fire is slowly coming back into fashion (in appropriate situations), as it should.
 
One could make an excellent case that the Martini-Henry was the best military rifle then in use. It was certainly more advanced than our M1873 Springfield. Even Germany used a single-shot (M71) Mauser then.

Lone Star
 
I doubt having winchesters would have improved things

They would have provided a blizzard of fire at short range, but they go through ammo quite fast and don't they have a long reload when warriors can rush them and stick them? As it was the Zulu Impi retired after they were exhausted and left some 400 dead on the field. Company B was equally exhausted and only had some 900 cartridges left(that's some 9 rounds per man). I doubt they could have held off another determined assault. From what I recollect many Company B casualties were caused by gunfire from a high area overlooking the perimeter. The Zulu's had access to arms, but were mostly using designs that predated the Martini-Henry(Percussion I would think). Just my two cents. Good thread!
 
"Hanson suggests that, in addition to the 800 dead Zulu on the scene, hundreds died from their wounds having walked or crawled miles away, a fact he attributes to the heavy, soft bullet of the Martini."

And does Hanson think the little soft 200 gr. .44 bullets would have killed them right there? My take is that Hanson isn't very 'gunny'. The Martini Henry was not obsolete at that time.

What would have helped is if the British could shoot accurately. The second Anglo-Boer war drove this point home and it is my understanding that by the beginning of WWI the small regular army was an army of marksmen.

If the 1873 Winchester was such a good military rifle why did no one use them except at the battle of Plevna mentioned by a previous poster? Even in the USA, land of the lever action, we stopped using them after the Spencer in the Civil War.
 
It wasn't so much that the Brits were using single shots that got them whupped as Isandhlwana but rather that they ran out of ammo. They held their own until ammo ran low.

At Rorke's Drift, the lines were shorter (at least more in proportion to the area they sought to defend) and ammunition was readily available. Ammunition resupply would have to be accelerated with repeaters (one of Civil War U.S. Ordnance Chief Ripley's concern and reason why he hated repeaters).

The Zulus were actually familar with firearms having fought against the Dutch for over a century. 10,000 Zulus under Chief Dingan attacked Boers who were behind a Kraal. The Boers used their rifles to inflict 3,000 casualties. The movie Zulu inaccurately protrayed Zulu tactics (they didn't stand to be shot down and crawled to within assegai throwing distance) at the battle.
 
Yeah, and the Dutch were using muzzleloading flintlocks! Talk about seriously being outnumbered. But each shooter (man) had a boy or wife or daughter behind him (usually several) reloading his other rifles (usually two or three) so despite the small numbers they kept up a steady fire. Interestingly enough they developed the laager (circling the wagons, then sticking thornbushes in the empty spots underneath,etc) for defense before they did in the US, and this is where the military term and tactic come from.
 
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