Hero, villian, or kook?

[KLR]

Risasi-

I will admit to missing your "They usually get what they deserve" comment. I skimmed your post, saw the John Woo stuff and moved on.

In the interests of brevity, here are my points (my thesis if you will):

1. Drega was a disturbed individual who murdered a bunch of people (no real debate there).

2. His victims can hardly be considered his tormentors even if you subscribe to the theory that such action can be justified. The wilkipedia information combines a lot of Drega's perceived slights and makes it seem as if Bunnell was orchestrating all of the problems he encountered over 26 years. All she did was show up when the tax assessor was at Drega's house and keep him from breaking into town records. I think she and the two officers became the "empty vessels" into which he put all of his hatreds.

3. (off topic one) The federal govt is not as big as people would have us believe. I see no problem with questioning "statistics" such as the 45% number that was put forth.

Overall, a good analogy for the comments I take issue with might be a situation like when someone gets killed doing something stupid i.e. stands on the seat of a motorcycle while going down the highway. Most would say: "Too bad, but if he hadn't been . . . " At worst, some people in this thread are blaming the victims, at best they are callous. I don't see anyone as having stood on the seat of his/her motorcycle.

I don't consider any of my comments to be "bluster." People seemed quite willing to accept the half-truths regarding Drega. Few people commented after I placed the articles. In some ways, given the dearth of information on Drega other than the "Ballad" controversy, I felt a requirement to set the record straight.

 

[ebd10]

I hope all you patriots, revolutionaries, militamen, and constitutional scholars never lose a friend, daughter, brother, or nephew to a dirtbag like Drega.

Thank you, and I hope that, after busting your butt to accumulate a decent retirement, a house, and a little savings, you don't find it all stripped away from you by some faceless bureaucrat hiding behind "regulations" that you had no say in enacting, or even any idea of their existence. I hope that your every transaction with the government is with kind, compassionate, and intelligent case workers as opposed to the officious, apathetic, automatons that Drega was apparently dealing with. Maybe I missed it in the articles, but there was no attempt to compromise with, or compensate Drega for the loss of his property in the initial incident. Perhaps the entire incident could have been avoided if someone had just worked with him instead of beating him over the head with "regulations".

 

[KLR]

Loss of property in the initial incident? He paid a fine. Yes the amount was pretty big in 1971 dollars but he kept his property. Or do you consider not being able to use it as you wish (tarpaper) a "taking?"

 

[Risasi]

Hi KLR,

1. I agree, he was disturbed. Of course I believe people can become justifiably disturbed. Was this the case with this man? Perhaps so, very likely not. Which I alluded to in my original post. He did go too far it seems. Joos (or is it Coos?) did get in the way, of course that's no reason to get shot. He most certainly went over the edge when he shot that Game Warden. Also the police were likely "just doing their jobs", but I only have a twinge of sympathy for them. I know it sounds callous, but their vocation has a higher level of danger involved. And if one can't live (or die) by the code they got no business being in law enforcement. Likewise Drega most certainly went too far and I would agree he is a murderer.

2. I agree, the wikipedia does make judge Bunnell out to be the bad guy. And that was how I made my initial assessment of the story. Obviously you have added more details, via the newspaper articles. And that has shed some very interesting details on our sorrowful story here. Which I am grateful for. You seem to be closer to the story so I will take you at face value for what you say. My only comment on Bunnell is she seems to be a player. She was a lawyer, judge and it appears that she was trying to "run the town" a bit. Not sure. Not enough details. My only comment is that once people get into politics things get very fuzzy, and I think much less of their morality. I'll admit I am biased about this, course it doesn't help that I've known many, many lawyers over the years ...

3. As for cropcircle's 45% .gov workers fact, he stated that number was from Ross Perot. So he said Ross said, which is hearsay. My only point was DMF jumped all over him for that, as if cropcircle said it. Which may have been an oversight. Course cropcircle could have used that as a baiting tactic too, he may also have used it earlier and I didn't notice it in the thread (it's getting pretty long and hard to keep track of). I all I can judge for myself are the actions, not the intentions of any party here. It just seemed like knee-jerk reactions were starting again. And I know how that goes, clouds the mind. People start sputtering opinion and conjecture rather facts, or clearly stating what is their opinion and what is not. I should know, I've done it myself a lot.

And as for your "bluster", I meant that in the sense that I thought you were having that emotional knee jerk reaction. Hey, you know the locals apparently. I'm sure you have heard a TON of water cooler talk, seen more evidence than we can see. So when somebody from the outside who doesn't know the people you may know starts commenting in a cold way I can understand why you would start drawing a lnie in the sand. And to be honest I don't think much of it, I would expect it from you. Unless you are some sort of robot. Also you seem to have stepped back and started presenting the newspaper articles, etc. You started giving us cold hard facts, and that helped a lot. For instance the status of his property indicates he was preparing for war. Course it sounds like he was planning on being attacked. If they never started this fight with him, or just backed off during the first "shooting" incident I doubt anything would have happened, he's probably still be camped out like some doddering senile. I guess that's neither here nor there. By then the only option was total commitment to put this guy away. I guess that should probably be another subject in a different thread, that probably belongs on APS anyway. Which is of doubtful disputation.

Either way I only commented again as I am pretty sure I was the only one who flat out had the mentality of "they deserved it" or "got it coming to them" . Others may sort of half agreed, but many likewise vilified Drega even further than I did. I guess I just don't care any more. Everybody is dealt in the game, you can fold any time, or you can throw your discards and do your best. Of course sometimes you face a stacked deck, or some players using signals. Obviously Drega, right or wrong felt this was the case and made his play. And it's obvious from his actions he felt he had nothing to lose. That was my only point. And this is why I commented again. Between you and me, I think we're cool. I'm not holding any kind of grudge. While personally I don't think we're exactly on the same side, I also don't think there are sides to pick in this matter. It's just a travesty no matter how you cut it. Maybe I am just a little too apathetic about it too.

 

[ebd10]

Or do you consider not being able to use it as you wish (tarpaper) a "taking?"

Of course it's a taking. It's not like he was running a rendering plant, or a battery factory on his property. They took issue with him because his house was ugly. And if, in fact, he was singled out as he states, then those people that fined him for his transgressions did indeed reap the whirlwind. Nonetheless, I used to know peopl in New England that said many homes looked worn on the outside, while being structurally sound and well-kept insdie because beautification on the outside caused them to be assessed higher property taxes. If this was what Drega was avoiding with tarpaper, then I applaud him.

I view Drega as a man whose life took a sudden turn for the worse when his wife died.That combined with numerous legal problems, finally caused him to act out. Whether he is a hero, villain, or kook depends on where you stand in regards to our government, I guess. Here's a question we should ask, especially in light of the recent USSC decision about Eminent Domain; was Drega the last, or the first?

 

[DMF]

My only point was DMF jumped all over him for that, as if cropcircle said it. Which may have been an oversight.

I suggest a reread of the thread and my comments.

To summarize:
- I pointed to a lie told by cropc, where he claimed all government employees had their healthcare provided at no cost to the employee.

- I also pointed out he made this ridiculous claim as his own simplistic explanation for perceived ills of the government

- I further stated this was just an example of how illogical people with a blind hatred of anything related to the government post.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1797486#post1797486

- So when cropc responded with more BS about 45% of the population being employed by the government, I had every reason to "jump all over him" based on his earlier lie.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Yo, Mr. MF, cropc here

When you said,

I suggest a reread of the thread and my comments.

To summarize:
- I pointed to a lie told by cropc, where he claimed all government employees had their healthcare provided at no cost to the employee.

Apparently you reread the thread. I looked back at where I think I posted the bit that offended you so much.

I think it was,

Usta be working for .gov meant reasonably low pay, but expectation of job security and a good pension if you could stand the humiliation of working for .gov long enough to qualify. Sort of like selling your soul.

Now there is an inate hostility toward .gov workers since everybody knows that just the medical care is almost too valuable to figger. I got bit by a dog a few weeks ago. I got the bill today from the emergency room.

$751.00.

Antiseptic and 3 stiches. $751.00. People who work for .gov don't care. The .gov pays.

The rest of us who get to pay the real hospital bill are only naturally offended. We work our a$$es off and pay our taxes and the .gov workers get 6 weeks of vacation, don't care if a dog bites them, put the "out to lunch, use next window" sign up and retire and live the life of luxury.

You know who you are.

Is this where I told the lie stating that

all government employees had their healthcare provided at no cost to the employee.

? I yam sorry, but I just can't seem to find anything else in the string. Please be so kind as to link us to my post like you did above. I would appreciate it.

I am hoping that my alleged hate filled rhetoric hasn't affected you to the extent that you are reading between my lines. If you put up the post, I will certainly apologize.

 

[JohnBT]

I'm back from the business trip and the guy's still a murdering scumbag.

Arguing statistics won't change that.

John

P.S. - Please realize that there is a lot, a whole lot, of overlap in all of those labor statistics. Does an airline flight attendant get counted under personal service or transportation...or both? Does an Amtrak engineer go under government employee or transportation? Labor statistics = next to worthless = based on a bunch of guesswork. Is a government contractor, say a Ph.D. rocket scientist, a government worker since his boss uses government contract money to pay his salary?

P.P.S. - The Commonwealth once paid for all of my Blue Cross premiums...like 25 or 30 years ago. Since then, HA! Keep dreaming. Still a good deal though and it makes up a little for the ho-hum salary. I should have kept studying physics and been one a dem dere rocket scientists. Yup.

 

[DMF]

Is this where I told the lie stating that

Yes, what you quoted is the lie I was referring to.

People who work for .gov don't care. The .gov pays.

As I pointed out in my subsequent posts, I pay insurance premiums, and I pay my deductible. Just like insured workers in the private sector who participate in a group plan. Then you and 2A wanted to pretend that because my salary comes from tax dollars that you pay for my insurance, but since you're self employed you pay for your own, to which I pointed out that under your "logic" you do not in fact pay for your insurance, your customers do. You can't have it both ways.

You do work and earn money, and I do work and earn money. However, your comments about who pays for my insurance were driven by the fact you hate what I do. BTW, I still haven't seen your name on the check used to pay my last deductible or premium.

I also pay for Mr. MF's insurance.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1797578#post1797578

As I said your posts are an example of some of the illogical, hate filled, rhetoric that gets posted here. Yours caught my attention, because you started off with a lie.

 

[KLR]

Risasi:

Thanks for pointing out APS. I had never been over there before. At first I thought it was a previously unknown section of THR. Probably spent a bit too much time trying to find it before realizing it wasn't here.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree (or not get started) on the dangerous nature of police work. I am disturbed any time a firefighter gets killed on a rescue, or a coal mine collapses.

45Badger can probably echo what I am about to write. Here is the lens through which people like 45Badger and I view the incident and in many ways, the United States: In NH, violent crime is very rare (usually one of the Dakotas has a lower violent crime rate). We have had shall-issue CCW for decades and a large percentage of the populace loves shooting. Instant check for all firearms and no registration. In less than a week, we had the Colebrook shootings plus Officer Jeremy Charron was gunned down during his first week on the job in Epping NH. He was checking out a car and was shot by the two occupants. Like I said before- tough week. It was a blast of cold water in the face. Those kind of things don't happen here, etc. Inevitably, state Sen. Cohen got plenty of airtime demanding a ban on the ownership of hi-cap magazines. Thankfully, it never went anywhere.

Cropcirclewalker has brought up a lot of Libertarian arguments. In this vein, NH is known for a mistrust of government power. We have a 400 person legislature (one of the largest legislative bodies in the world) for a population of just over 1 million, and they get paid something like $50/year (last time I checked). We have a governor's council that can serve as a check on the governor for a lot of issues. People (especially up north) still have town hall meetings. We have no sales tax, no income tax. Property taxes are steep (not NY steep, but high) but the idea is that control is shifed down to the lowest level possible. Up in the "North Country" as that area is known, they are even more fiercely independent. Trouble is, Drega wouldn't play ball with even the modest constraints (by comparison to a lot of locales) set up by the local government. The north country is one of the few areas where elected officials are kept on a tight leash by their constituents.

Joos=Editor; Coos=County.

EBD10- you are correct about people letting their exteriors go for lower taxes. Vicky Bunnell had nothing to do with Drega's fine in 1971 nor his riverbank issues. She happened to be present when he was assessed for the garage and kept Drega from rummaging through town files. No reaping there.

Cropcirclewalker- I cannot say you are a bad guy either (thanks for the nice comments earlier) but don't you think your statements can be a wee bit inflammatory?

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Art or somebody else is about to lock this thread up because of your vituperative responses. Probably before I click the "submit" button.

You are unwilling to admit that you are "overhead". Yes, I pay for your healthcare. Yes, I pay your check. You are overhead.

I do not pretend to know which agency? it is that employs you and I don't want to know nor do I care. You are overhead. If it's the ATF (I love the "F Troop" perjorative) you are even employed to do nothing more than unconstitutionally harass gun owners. Alcohol and Tobacco? The ninth amendment all but obliterates the purpose for your employment. Tell me again about voting in a representative that follows the constitution. Dreams, all dreams.

This is a pro gun forum.

Sorrowfully, I must admit that most here in the good ol' USofA are afraid of freedom. They fear the unstructured. They must have rules. Second Samuel describes how the people "Must have a King".

Like Freddy Kruger, in your employment, you are the manifestation of the fears of those that many call "sheeple". They need you.

I do not, nor does the constitution, which your sig line suggests that you hold in high regard.

As much as you would prefer not to admit it, nor would I, we are quite similar. Both of us hold the constitution in high regard. Problem is.......you are an authoritarian and I am a libertarian. It hurts my feelings that you would accuse me of "hate filled, illogical rhetoric" I hate no one nor nothing (except dishonesty, greed and sloth).

It's sorta like this.....Imagine yourself as Alexander Hamilton...and me as Aaron Burr. Virtually speaking, that is.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. KLR, you are OK.

There used to be a poster known as "sendec" or something like that. He and I would get into some knock-down, drag-outs and the thread would get locked. I again must appreciate the civility of your posts.

I love my country. I love my constitution. One of the most perfect documents every created by man.

I hold my .gov in low regard. Some say I hate it. I do not.

I took a vow to protect and defend my constitution ......yada yada yada, we've all heard it before. That vow did not have an expiration date.

Thomas Jefferson is one of my heros and a guide for my opinions. He was a libertarian. So am I. Aaron Burr was his vice-president. He was OK too.

The ownership of property is bedrock of freedom. Live Free or Die.

 

[DMF]

I hate no one nor nothing (except dishonesty, greed and sloth).

Then you must be filled with self loathing.

Again, why isn't your name on the check that paid my last deductible, and my last premium, or even my last paycheck?

. . . and me as Aaron Burr.

You obviously think too much of yourself, and too little of Aaron Burr (and considering his history that says alot.)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/duel/peopleevents/pande01.html

If he had been able to keep his ambition in check, Aaron Burr might have become president. Instead, he became known as the man who killed Alexander Hamilton and as one of the most notorious traitors in history.

Thomas Jefferson . . . Aaron Burr was his vice-president. He was OK too.

Yeah, Jefferson thought so little of Burr he blocked him from a second term as VP, and gave him very little responsibility in his first term.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

You are overhead. Poof!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Of course it's a taking. It's not like he was running a rendering plant, or a battery factory on his property. They took issue with him because his house was ugly. And if, in fact, he was singled out as he states, then those people that fined him for his transgressions did indeed reap the whirlwind. Nonetheless, I used to know peopl in New England that said many homes looked worn on the outside, while being structurally sound and well-kept insdie because beautification on the outside caused them to be assessed higher property taxes. If this was what Drega was avoiding with tarpaper, then I applaud him.

Zoning regulations all over New England border precipitously on being illegal takings. 25 years ago I served on a local zoning board for a few years, and a few of us on the commission frequently objected to the latest brainstorm by our more liberal colleagues on the grounds that their new regulation would represent an uncompensated taking.

Those of you who have not lived in New England and who do not understand the OLD New England Yankee mentality (and this may apply especially to JBT) seem easily persuaded that this guy was just a murdering dirtbag. I respectfully submit that it's not that black-and-white. Yankees are (or "were") proud and self-sufficient people. They never took kindly to bureaucrats meddling in their affairs. Let's not forget that this took place in New Hampshire, the "Live Free or Die," "Don't Tread on Me" state.

This man WAS pushed beyond reasonable limits. IMHO he snapped. He had been pushed too far. Should he have reacted as he did? No, he should not. But I can understand how he could have felt backed into a corner, persecuted, harrassed, and left with no viable recourse.

This is an example of why government should be strictly limited in what it can and cannot attempt to regulate. So what if his house was sided with tar paper? There is no Constitutional right to not have your neighbor's house covered in tar paper. If you don't like it, don't look at it.

A couple of towns over from where I used to live there was a very ordinary raised ranch that must have been owned by someone with a similar situation. The paint was faded and shabby. Then one day it was freshly painted -- in the most hideous shade of brilliant purple you could imagine, with glaringly contrasting diagonal stripes. It stayed that way for about ten years. I never found out, but my guess all along was that the neighbors harrassed the owner about not painting his house until he finally said "Okay, you want paint? I'll give you paint." If they were worried that the appearance of his house before was detracting from their property values, I'd hate to think what their property values looked like after he painted his house. Gotcha!

 

[KLR]

Those of you who have not lived in New England and who do not understand the OLD New England Yankee mentality (and this may apply especially to JBT) seem easily persuaded that this guy was just a murdering dirtbag.

Can I assume you mean JohnBT and not the other interpretation of JBT?

 

[Gunsnrovers]

Villain. Paint him up as a martyr is you want, but he was a murderous villain.

 

[Art Eatman]

Hey, look: Arguing about how much of a percentage of the workforce is in government has zilch to do with Drega. Also, folks who have erroneous beliefs, and state them, are incorrect but they aren't liars.

All that sort of stuff doesn't help the thread...

So talk about Drega and his possible motivations and the psychology of those involved, but stay on the topic, okay?

Otherwise...

Art

 

[JohnBT]

"Should he have reacted as he did? No, he should not."

Yep, he was a frustrated, multiple murderer.

What makes you think we don't know a bit about Yankees here in Virginia?

John...B.S., M.S. & I can talk the psychobabble game if need be, like in court.

 

[jbleinweber]

Yeah, right

Not a victim......not a victim.........
What people in this society have forgotten, or purposefully failed to remember is what our parents used to try to teach us: Life is a matter of choices. Every choice you make will have a consequence. Some are good, some are bad and some you won't be able to tell because they are too inconsequential. At what point did this idiot think that his choices would have a good consequence?

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

"Drega shot and killed both troopers. Drega then commandeered their vehicle and drove to the office of former selectman, now lawyer and part-time Judge, Vickie Bunnell. Bunnell reportedly carried a handgun in her purse out of fear of Drega. She left by the back door. Drega walked to the rear of the building and shot her in the back from a range of about 30 feet. Bunnell died. Dennis Joos, editor of the local Colebrook News and Sentinel, worked in the office next door. Unarmed, he ran out and tackled Drega. Drega walked about 15 feet with Joos still clutching him around the legs, then shot Joos in the spine. He died."


Villian. Seriously.

 

[jeepmor]

Going on a murder spree cannot be justified in any way. It is always wrong, no matter what the reason.

So why did we start shooting at English Officers in the 1700's for?

Pushing us into a corner and trying to over-regulate our lives without effectively representing us wasn't it? Something like that, looks the same here, just an individual behind the fight, not an army.

jeepmor

 

[GRIZ22]

Drega obviously had issues as he did not act as a rational person. Perhaps some of his harassment was brought on by his own actions. Being "pushed over the edge" does not justify killing people. Drega's actions could be used as a argument why we shouldn't have firearms. Any support for his actions hurt the RKBA.

 

[gunsmith]

this thread is old...very old

plus it's not one of my threads so there is no good reason to be rivived!