bosshoff
Member
I AM a hunter. This is not hunting. This is shooting. That being said, i'd probably participate if i were there. Not really any different that lopping off its head with a hatchet.
Hey PETA! Eat this!
- Thread starter jsalcedo
- Start date
- Status
I'm seriously wondering how shooting deer from a blind using a feeder is any different from this kind of turkey shoot?
Other than the possibility that a deer will not be killed on the first shot and not be found by the hunter and left to die slowly.
These stupid turkeys in the box are going to get a quick death one way or the other.
All sports involving live animals can be called barbaric for one reason or another. I don't agree that this turkey shoot is any more cruel than any other method.
Anyone remember when the Brits used live birds for target practice before the advent of "clay pigeons" ?
Other than the possibility that a deer will not be killed on the first shot and not be found by the hunter and left to die slowly.
These stupid turkeys in the box are going to get a quick death one way or the other.
All sports involving live animals can be called barbaric for one reason or another. I don't agree that this turkey shoot is any more cruel than any other method.
Anyone remember when the Brits used live birds for target practice before the advent of "clay pigeons" ?
DelayedReaction
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2004
- Messages
- 645
I don't particularly like the idea. I'm all for taking a lemon and putting it 100 yards away for people to try and hit, but stringing a turkey up so you can blow its head off seems needlessly cruel.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
jsalcedo said:
And that's exactly the point, they are the same thing, but the hunters here will spend paragraphs arguing the differences, even though there are not any.
Baiting a deer and fencing in turkeys, so that they may both be shot at, are EXACTLY the same things and I'm enjoying people arguing for one and against the other. Both are killing animals for food, something I endorse fully!
And as you mention, the turkey shoot may be MORE humane in that there are no escapes of wounded animals who will die later.
I just don't see the big deal.
I believe the point is that no matter how sadistic this form of turkey shoot is, it is still more humane than the 'efficient' method used in industrial turkey production. As a rule of thumb, instant hypervelocity decapitation does a number on the pain centers of the brain.Glenn Bartley said:
It probably makes me a horrible human being to think this, but that would actually be kinda funny.middy said:
Does that make us mineral or vegetable? What about archaebacteria?AnthonyRSS said:
AnthonyRSS
Member
Hey, I see animals and humans as being completely different.
If you don't, that's up to you.
W4AKR, out.
If you don't, that's up to you.
W4AKR, out.
Even though the reply I am about to quote shows a distinct lack of forethought I will address the issue it raised:
1) The turkey is trussed up. It is encloised in a box. It can not move normally because someone has just manhandled it to put it into this predicament. It is already scared because of this.
2) There are a lot of people around, talking, hollering and hooting.
This would normally make the turkey scared enough to flee but it cannot.
3) The turkey hears a large bang. This again enough to make it flee but it cannot so it bobbs its head as it tries to move away. It sure isn't staying still to be shot, this is one of the things that has made tuurkey shoots a bit of a challenge, they move and move frantically because they are scared (although in this case they are trussed up and boxed with only a head showing so the head moves or bobbs. No they are not ducking to avoid a bullet thinking that a bullet is coming, they are ducking (word comes from DUCKS so I guess by your logic ducks are smarter than turkeys) or bobbing, or moving their heads up and down and side to side because that is all they can do the way they have been tied up and boxed.
4) The wood or cardboard of the box gets splattered by dirt - please remember the box is in a ditch with only the turkey's head showing above the ditch and people are shooting bullets. Where do think at least some of the missed shots go? The dirt flying into the turkey's face makes it bobb and move its head even more and it still tries to get away but it cannot.
Need I go on with this? Funny you were not able to figure this one out.
As for this:
As for those who keep saying something to the effect of 'who brought up sporting', maybe you had best ead the original post, the original poster brought it up but here it is in brief:
The whole concept of shooting at a turkey trussed up and boxed is something that less than an adult would find joy in as far as I am concerned. To try to justify it by saying you are HARVESTING meat instead of hunting it is ludicrous. Hunting includes harvesting. The manner of harvest should be such that you show our respect for that being harvested. This is a sign of a true hunter/gatherer/harvester. if you have no respect for such - well you probably have little respect for other things if for only the reason that shooting at turkeys like this shows the true inner man or woman atb work. Again, it is not the killing I am debating, it is the act of scaring the crap out of the animals for absolutely no reason except to have fun. If that is what turns you on, I think there is a screw loose somewhere and there is no justification not even the word of the Almighty because he never told you to torture animals you may or may not be about to eat.
Here is what the turkey has to go on how it would react to this knowledge:
1) The turkey is trussed up. It is encloised in a box. It can not move normally because someone has just manhandled it to put it into this predicament. It is already scared because of this.
2) There are a lot of people around, talking, hollering and hooting.
This would normally make the turkey scared enough to flee but it cannot.
3) The turkey hears a large bang. This again enough to make it flee but it cannot so it bobbs its head as it tries to move away. It sure isn't staying still to be shot, this is one of the things that has made tuurkey shoots a bit of a challenge, they move and move frantically because they are scared (although in this case they are trussed up and boxed with only a head showing so the head moves or bobbs. No they are not ducking to avoid a bullet thinking that a bullet is coming, they are ducking (word comes from DUCKS so I guess by your logic ducks are smarter than turkeys) or bobbing, or moving their heads up and down and side to side because that is all they can do the way they have been tied up and boxed.
4) The wood or cardboard of the box gets splattered by dirt - please remember the box is in a ditch with only the turkey's head showing above the ditch and people are shooting bullets. Where do think at least some of the missed shots go? The dirt flying into the turkey's face makes it bobb and move its head even more and it still tries to get away but it cannot.
Need I go on with this? Funny you were not able to figure this one out.
As for this:
I can argue the manner of death because I know as well as do you that animals are capable of fear and feeling. Why make an animal suffer anymore than it need to suffer to fill your plate. Now as to the real argument, it is not about dinner because remember not everyone, probably not even most, get a turkey at the turkey shoot. This is not a feeding thing at all really, it is just a friggin excuse for some backwoods gungho bumpkins or some deranged city slickers to kill something and take some sort of sick pleasure from having done so when the animal does not stand a chance. Sure you can miss but the animal gets killed anyhow later on. I suppose I am arguing is the cruelty, the barbarity, the I gotta kill it when its tied down attitude of this type of thing and, I am mostly arguing that when you do something that is inexcusably bad, just because you are doing something like that for charity does not make it any better. Nor does doing it by invoking the name of God make it any better; in fact it makes it pretty low in my view, about as low as can be.
As for those who keep saying something to the effect of 'who brought up sporting', maybe you had best ead the original post, the original poster brought it up but here it is in brief:
The whole concept of shooting at a turkey trussed up and boxed is something that less than an adult would find joy in as far as I am concerned. To try to justify it by saying you are HARVESTING meat instead of hunting it is ludicrous. Hunting includes harvesting. The manner of harvest should be such that you show our respect for that being harvested. This is a sign of a true hunter/gatherer/harvester. if you have no respect for such - well you probably have little respect for other things if for only the reason that shooting at turkeys like this shows the true inner man or woman atb work. Again, it is not the killing I am debating, it is the act of scaring the crap out of the animals for absolutely no reason except to have fun. If that is what turns you on, I think there is a screw loose somewhere and there is no justification not even the word of the Almighty because he never told you to torture animals you may or may not be about to eat.
silverlance
Member
my only comment
i'm ok with this sort of thing as long as they require shooters to use a large caliber, say 8mm or 308.
i've slaughtered many birds myself at home over the years (and i live in los angeles).
you buy a crate full of birds, then carefully yank one out while leaving the rest inside.
holding it by the neck, you stick it in the throat with a knife and twist its head to the side so all the blood gushes out onto the ground (usually a particularly fertile spot of soil - supposedly too much blood ruins land but never had that happen). when it finally ceases to struggle, you then have the PITA chore of plucking and cleaning. this is the part that i don't really know how to do well, because my grandmother would usually do it. I never got taught how to clean because my grandmother died soon after she started teaching me.
being a villiage girl, my granny was still pretty sensitive toward the feelings of animals. she would never eat cow because she spent most of her childhood with them, and any kill she made whether bird pig or dog was done smoothly and without hesitation.
she once told me about her first time killing a goose - she was afraid, and didn't follow through completely on the thrust. the goose wound up head half-on, half-off (what i woudl envision happening to those turkeys that only get "wounded" because they're using hmong deer rifles or the sort), and she fainted.
thus, the lesson she left with me was this: "if you're going to kill something, don't do it half-assed; either do it well or don't do it at all."
i'm ok with this sort of thing as long as they require shooters to use a large caliber, say 8mm or 308.
i've slaughtered many birds myself at home over the years (and i live in los angeles).
you buy a crate full of birds, then carefully yank one out while leaving the rest inside.
holding it by the neck, you stick it in the throat with a knife and twist its head to the side so all the blood gushes out onto the ground (usually a particularly fertile spot of soil - supposedly too much blood ruins land but never had that happen). when it finally ceases to struggle, you then have the PITA chore of plucking and cleaning. this is the part that i don't really know how to do well, because my grandmother would usually do it. I never got taught how to clean because my grandmother died soon after she started teaching me.
being a villiage girl, my granny was still pretty sensitive toward the feelings of animals. she would never eat cow because she spent most of her childhood with them, and any kill she made whether bird pig or dog was done smoothly and without hesitation.
she once told me about her first time killing a goose - she was afraid, and didn't follow through completely on the thrust. the goose wound up head half-on, half-off (what i woudl envision happening to those turkeys that only get "wounded" because they're using hmong deer rifles or the sort), and she fainted.
thus, the lesson she left with me was this: "if you're going to kill something, don't do it half-assed; either do it well or don't do it at all."
The Grand Inquisitor
Member
Any person who engages in such an awful "game" is likely of no worth and is probably defective in many other ways.
Only defective and pathetic people enjoy killing animals, savagely, for fun and game.
Only defective and pathetic people enjoy killing animals, savagely, for fun and game.
joab
Member
I suppose it could be considered torture if the turkeys were smart enough to know that they are being tortured.
These are birds, one step above bugs. I've had way too much personal interaction with fowl to assume anymore intelligence than that
As far as villagers killing quickly and humanly
I've seen dogs drowned, cows killed by having their throats cut and slowly drowning in their own blood, geese with their throats cut just enough to bleed out in the manner that you describe , and snakes boiled alive.
All in a matter of fact way with no tears or fainting
These are birds, one step above bugs. I've had way too much personal interaction with fowl to assume anymore intelligence than that
As far as villagers killing quickly and humanly
I've seen dogs drowned, cows killed by having their throats cut and slowly drowning in their own blood, geese with their throats cut just enough to bleed out in the manner that you describe , and snakes boiled alive.
All in a matter of fact way with no tears or fainting
NineseveN
member
LMAO.
As I said, I hunt - I do not bait deer - it is quite illegal where I hunt. If it were legal, I would not do it then. The thing thought that makes deer baiting and turkey shoots not one in the same thing is that the turkey has already been caught (or in this case farmed/ranched). It is tied up, it is boxed. It is already scared more than many seem to imagine, then you start taking pot shots at it to see who can hit it. A deer hunt, and I mean a legal, sporiting deer hunt, is something very different., The deer is in its element. The hunter enters that element and tries to outwit the deer to get close enough for a shot (all deer I have taken have been within a maximum of about 35 yards from me). The deer, if missed can run. Sure a missed shot willscare it, but it can get away before the next shot unless the hunter is very quick and shoots better the second time around which is not as liely as hitting it the first time around. It is definitely the same as a turkey trussed and boxed that cannot escape and that has shooter after shooter taking shots at it while it is tied up and boxed. The true sportsman hunter (even one hunting to feed his family) uses ethics during the hunt and shows respect for nature's bounty and this includes the deer. If you don't show this respect for the land and the game, then you probably are the type who would try to defend these turkey shoots as being the same as hunting. The mentality behind being an ethical hunter and being a slob hunter are quite different even if the end result is a dead animal and; the mentality behind being a turkey shoot participant using an immitation moving turkey head target as opposed to using a boxed and trussed turkey are also quite different despite the outcome of a dead bird.
If you don't believe that there is a difference in how some animal is killed because it is going to wind up dead anyhow then tell me would you agree to this. If anyone of you who whole heartidly supports this turkey shoot thing has a beloved pet dog that is near death and needs to be put down, bring it to some psycho who will agree to do the same to your dog as you think is ok for the turkey. Bind its legs, put it in a box with only its head protruding, set the box 200 yards downrange (its head is bigger than a turkey's so more distance is required). Make sure there are at least a couple of other animals so set up as targets so we can have a few shooters ondifferent points at once. Set the box downrange and let the shooting begin. Whomever hits the dog's head first wins whatever prize you have chosen, let's say a nice frozen butterbal turkey. Make sure to invite me because I want to see your reaction as it gets put down in this fashion. Invite your wife and kids too so they can witness it. Make sure you take a shot since it is your dog, but not the first shot, make yourself 10th in line. Then in about a week, tell me again how this would have been the same as bringing the dog to a vet for a quick and painless injection to put it down. I don't mean for you and your feelings either, I mean tell me how it would have been the same for your beloved pet.
Now remember, before you reply to my post, some of you say that because the end result is the death of the animal - it does not matter how you get to that point. Are you still as sure of that now as you were a minute ago.
Best regards,
Glenn B
NineseveN
member
Can we torture mentally handicapped people?
How about canines with mental defects? Could we string one of them up like a Pinata and then have the local kids whack at it with tire irons? The first kid to break that sucker open gets a year's supply of Ball Park Hot Dogs. $10.00 a shot, all proceeds go to "toys for tots".
Dumb monkeys? We could fire them out of a cannon into a giant steel target. A bullseye gets you a months supply of Rhesus Pieces...er, I mean Reeses Pieces. Proceeds go to the Hair Club for Men. $3.50 a shot.
Pulling the wings off of flies? Is that okay if I let a bunch of kids do it for charity? How about $1.00 for 10 flies cause they're cheap and easy to come by? Proceeds go to the Ronald McDonald House.
We could beat lame horses with clubs for fun and televise it like a Jimmy Swaggart telethon! $25.00 for 5 minutes of whacking. No prize really, let's just get out some aggression on a dumb horse that will be shot eventually anyway.
Hell, most fish have terribly small mental capacities, let's get a 60-gallon bucket of them, and then whack them with big Bertha Warbird Titanium Drivers for $1.00 a shot. Furthest hitter gets a coupon for $25.00 off at Red Lobster! The money can go to the March of Dimes!
Wow, you guys are right, this can be fun!
Rationalizations aside....
"Tell me something, why not kill the turkeys before the shoot in a more decent way, then print targets of a turkey's head and set them at 100 yards for folks to shoot at? Would it be too cost prohibitive to do this?"
No, it wouldn't. Clubs in my area have been doing it that way for decades, with NO attrition in attendance, no loss of revenue and no abuse of living animals for the pleasure of these "noble sportsmen."
A target is a target is a target. You can hit it or you can't. In short, there's no reason why the shoot can't consist of paper targets and turkey prizes.
"Tell me something, why not kill the turkeys before the shoot in a more decent way, then print targets of a turkey's head and set them at 100 yards for folks to shoot at? Would it be too cost prohibitive to do this?"
No, it wouldn't. Clubs in my area have been doing it that way for decades, with NO attrition in attendance, no loss of revenue and no abuse of living animals for the pleasure of these "noble sportsmen."
A target is a target is a target. You can hit it or you can't. In short, there's no reason why the shoot can't consist of paper targets and turkey prizes.
NineseveN,
While I lightheartidly referred to 'backwoods gungho bumpkins' to make a point, please note I also lightheartidly included 'deranged city slickers' to be fair and to avoid a stereotype. Anyone can be as callous as can those who would shoot turkeys like was described. I don't want anyone thinking I believe such behavior is limited to one type of person or stereotype or that I was making an argument against one type of person from one area. So I mentioned two from far flung corners of our world. I do think however, in all seriouness, that such behavior does seem to inflame the minds of others, such as PETA or ALF members, to the point where they would immediately associate such behavior with certain stereotypes and, they would then place all shooters, hunters, harvesters, turkey eaters and so forth into a turkey shooter particiapnt stereotype because of such.
best regards,
Glenn B
While I lightheartidly referred to 'backwoods gungho bumpkins' to make a point, please note I also lightheartidly included 'deranged city slickers' to be fair and to avoid a stereotype. Anyone can be as callous as can those who would shoot turkeys like was described. I don't want anyone thinking I believe such behavior is limited to one type of person or stereotype or that I was making an argument against one type of person from one area. So I mentioned two from far flung corners of our world. I do think however, in all seriouness, that such behavior does seem to inflame the minds of others, such as PETA or ALF members, to the point where they would immediately associate such behavior with certain stereotypes and, they would then place all shooters, hunters, harvesters, turkey eaters and so forth into a turkey shooter particiapnt stereotype because of such.
best regards,
Glenn B
NineseveN
member
Glenn I agree, but "Derranged City Slickers" wasn't all that funny. If you would have used the tired and true "bubba" or even the often misued "Hillbilly", I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But "Bumpkin" made my sides hurt, regardless of the context.
Did not mean to cause offense. Thanks.
Did not mean to cause offense. Thanks.
HankB
Member
I've never participated in this sort of turkey shoot, but even after reading the comments here, I don't see what the fuss is about - this isn't like dogfighting or cockfights, the turkey expires quickly and ends up as someone's dinner - where he was headed anyway.
Hmmm . . . being that these are shooting forums, I wonder if people know how metallic silhouette shooting got started, and how the parent sport is STILL practiced south of the border?
I see how this sort of thing could ruin a person's dinner.
Hmmm . . . being that these are shooting forums, I wonder if people know how metallic silhouette shooting got started, and how the parent sport is STILL practiced south of the border?
Isn't Rosie O'Donnel a PETA member?
I see how this sort of thing could ruin a person's dinner.For all of you out there who are mobile...what about the handicapped who perhaps enjoyed normal go out in the woods, set up a camp and wait hunting...but due to some unforseen event or accident or heaven forbid, late showing birth defect can no longer do this?
I know there are many "shoots" designed to help those people still enjoy their sport (hense why it's a shoot not a hunt)...Yeah, the rest of us might not consider it sporting, and hey, you always have the choice of not going (imagine that)....the animals are going to die whether from starvation, disease, slaughterhouse, hunter or by someone at a shoot....
How many of you with your deer hunting areas set out a block of salt or one of those automatic feeders with the "deer caine" or some other concoction in it? Oh wait...that's perfectly fair right? Wrong....If you're that big on the "sport" of hunting..then go out without your cammies and fancy modern technology anti scent gear and nail a deer....It's not that hard honestly....If you sit still long enough, even without all the fancy modern gear, the deer will come to you.....
Of course...there's always using a bow or black powder weapon....From what I've been told, turkeys aren't exactly the easiest animals to hunt...it's an accomplishment to get one (especially with a bow or other close contact weapon)....
I grew up on a small farm where my grandparents killed chickens/ducks for food...Been to the slaughterhouse/meatmarket at a young age too, so I'm familiar with how they die...It's food....we eat said food....If you don't like it...go snack on a carrot or something....Remember, this IS America...if you don't like something...you can choose not to participate.....
Mneme
I know there are many "shoots" designed to help those people still enjoy their sport (hense why it's a shoot not a hunt)...Yeah, the rest of us might not consider it sporting, and hey, you always have the choice of not going (imagine that)....the animals are going to die whether from starvation, disease, slaughterhouse, hunter or by someone at a shoot....
How many of you with your deer hunting areas set out a block of salt or one of those automatic feeders with the "deer caine" or some other concoction in it? Oh wait...that's perfectly fair right? Wrong....If you're that big on the "sport" of hunting..then go out without your cammies and fancy modern technology anti scent gear and nail a deer....It's not that hard honestly....If you sit still long enough, even without all the fancy modern gear, the deer will come to you.....
Of course...there's always using a bow or black powder weapon....From what I've been told, turkeys aren't exactly the easiest animals to hunt...it's an accomplishment to get one (especially with a bow or other close contact weapon)....
I grew up on a small farm where my grandparents killed chickens/ducks for food...Been to the slaughterhouse/meatmarket at a young age too, so I'm familiar with how they die...It's food....we eat said food....If you don't like it...go snack on a carrot or something....Remember, this IS America...if you don't like something...you can choose not to participate.....
Mneme
NineseveN,
You did not cause any offense sorry if I made it seemlike that. Bumpkin, well I guess I show my age, it was a term used many years ago and was made popular in movies (I remember it in comedies) about rural folks and city folks gettin together in some awkward situation - usually when the city slicker was describing the rural dweller... I guess it is sort of funny now that I think of it, and I did use it meaning it lightheartidly with no ofense intended. Better for all to laugh about it than get twisted.
Thanks
GB
You did not cause any offense sorry if I made it seemlike that. Bumpkin, well I guess I show my age, it was a term used many years ago and was made popular in movies (I remember it in comedies) about rural folks and city folks gettin together in some awkward situation - usually when the city slicker was describing the rural dweller... I guess it is sort of funny now that I think of it, and I did use it meaning it lightheartidly with no ofense intended. Better for all to laugh about it than get twisted.
Thanks
GB
Mnemesyne,
As for the issue at hand, you again echo what others have said:
best regards,
Glenn B
I do seem to remember this is America, in addition to not participating in something I find rather barbaric, I can also protest it or at least discuss why I find less than attractive to me. That is the whole point of a forum like this and certainly mst have been the point of the original poster, don't you think he anticipated some further discussion?
As for the issue at hand, you again echo what others have said:
This is not about getting food as there is much less a chance of getting the turkey this way thatn there would be in going to the market. This is about the ritual of a bunch of folks who come together to shoot at a trussed up and boxed up turkey to ahve fun. The attraction is not that you are going to get a turkey for a dollar and one single round - I am willing to bet that if there is still a tirkey after everyone has fired, some will take another crack at it, and again and again and again until either the sunsets, the range closes, or someone else shoots the bird. My guess would be that at some turkey shoots, some people probably pay more to take shots that miss than it would cost them to buy a turkey and make a donation to a charity - the ammunition costs alone could wind up making it cost more than buying a bird and making a donation. No, this is ot about eating the turkey, this is about a rather sadistic method of getting your jollies if you so participate.
best regards,
Glenn B
I am surprised at the overwhelming reaction to the treatment of the turkeys
as described in the article.
For the record, I am a vegetarian have never hunted or intentionally killed an animal.
I guess the main difference between people and their opinons on this subject
are based on culture, upbringing and social mores regarding the treatment of animals.
50 years ago nobody would have batted an eye and would have probably started their own shoot. Does that make people from that time less moral?
Anyone remember the outrage and indignation when Queen Elizabeth II attended a bird hunt/demonstration a couple years back?
She saw a wounded bird on the ground, picked it up and quicky popped it's head off. Believe it or not it was a major new story. The animal rights activists were peeing thier pants because of how the queen dispassionately dispatched the wounded bird. I guess they wanted the maimed bird lie on the ground and bleed to death.
Regarding:
That is a pretty bold statement, I agree cruelty should never be tolerated
but the fun and game part is 90% of the hunters out there.
as described in the article.
For the record, I am a vegetarian have never hunted or intentionally killed an animal.
I guess the main difference between people and their opinons on this subject
are based on culture, upbringing and social mores regarding the treatment of animals.
50 years ago nobody would have batted an eye and would have probably started their own shoot. Does that make people from that time less moral?
Anyone remember the outrage and indignation when Queen Elizabeth II attended a bird hunt/demonstration a couple years back?
She saw a wounded bird on the ground, picked it up and quicky popped it's head off. Believe it or not it was a major new story. The animal rights activists were peeing thier pants because of how the queen dispassionately dispatched the wounded bird. I guess they wanted the maimed bird lie on the ground and bleed to death.
Regarding:
That is a pretty bold statement, I agree cruelty should never be tolerated
but the fun and game part is 90% of the hunters out there.
joab
Member
Some people tried real hard to continue the torture of Terri Shiavo
This thread is proof that we are far too removed from our agrarian roots when we equate turkeys and flies to people and even to other animals with the mental capacity not to eat their own crap
Go out a spend some quality time with a turkey and then come back and tell me how close to human emotion they can get
Do you also agree with this statement
trickyasafox
Member
you can legally hunt over bait? i dont think you can in NY. can you hunt over feeders in other states?
NineseveN
member
Joab, the handicapped person comment was a stab, not a real good point. I'm actually sorry I made it because it predictably allowed you to roll away from the other points made and bring something so unrealted as Terry Schiavo into the mix.
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