Hi, what I carry, and Jerry Miculek

[dovedescending]

Hello all, I've been hiding in the shadows for some months now. Nice place you got here.

I carry a 4-inch Rossi .357, K-frame-ish. Hard little bugger to find grips for. :banghead: Pachmayr makes some that should fit, but frankly, I'm into wood. So I'm making my own. Also hard to find a good IWB holster. B/c it's a 4-inch, I think I've settled on Hoffner's Ultrux Miurage, because it holds the cylinder above the belt. Anybody have experience with one of these?

I've been training according to Ayoob... gripping my revolver as high as I can, reseating it into the web, and aligning it with my arm. Two hands, left foot forward (I'm a righty), all that. Then I watched Jerry "OHMYGOSH..." Miculek, http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/...emanhJ0KNWQYqM4 and learned that he holds his revolver VERY differently from Ayoob's method. Unless I'm completing misunderstanding Ayoob.

How do you fellows grip YOUR wheelguns?

 

[RatDrall]

Welcome to THR

I carry a 4" K-frame and use the standard "square butt conversion" rubber grips that it came with. I grip the gun high, as high as is natural without pushing things. I wouldn't worry about your footing so much, you'll want to practice drawing and firing your gun in various stances (and while moving forward, backward, side to side) because you might not have time to get into a perfect stance when it matters, so you should get used to it when it doesn't.

A side note, I wouldn't worry about how competition shooters hold their guns, just like I don't worry about how competition fighters fight. Competition is a watered down game that doesn't usually have too much to do with real life, where your targets fight back. Holding a gun and moving like the competitors do can get you shot, stabbed, disarmed, etc.

As far as holsters, I use a Blade Tech IWB, which places the cylinder right under the belt line, which is where it needs to be in order to snug the gun up to my side. Extremely high riding holsters need lots of barrel to pull the gun in, in my experience, and they aren't very comfortable if your shoulders are broader than your waist.

 

[dovedescending]

Thanks, Rat. So I guess I should admire the hell out of Jerry and just keep doing what I've been doing...

The reason I want a high-rise holster is because I like to own/wear pants that fit me WITHOUT a gun... (like when I'm in church; CC in church is illegal here), and tucking a K-frame IWB in regular pants, especially while in the car, can be very uncomfortable. I think 4 inches OUGHT to be enough barrel to tuck it in close; I've tried it sans holster at home and it feels pretty good, and it's not noticeable under a camp shirt. Tucks in pretty close to my side. Maybe it's my belly. Always had a pooch, even when I was a kid. Not due to lack of exercise, I just seem to be built that way.

 

[dovedescending]

Jerry does say something about pulling the trigger AS you line up on the target. Is that a really stupid idea in a defensive situation? It decreases response time quite a bit...

 

[Quoheleth]

I submit Miculec's competition rules are different than self-defense rules. Getting on the trigger fast to save a split second IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT by a highly trained PROFESSIONAL is one thing in a SPORTING situation. For the AVERAGE CITIZEN, who is not nearly as trained, and in a SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION it is courting disaster.

I suppose it does minimize the reaction time, but if you don't have EXCELLENT trigger control (and I wonder who does under high adrenaline situations) you'll risk dumping shots before you are on target. This is in direct violation to Rule #3 (finger on trigger before sights are on target) and #4 (where will your bullet go if it does AD?). Instead of speed, I would work on being smooth in getting on target and trigger squeeze - like the old saying, smooth is fast.

My 2 cents...
Q

 

[MrBorland]

he holds his revolver VERY differently from Ayoob's method.

Not sure he holds his gun differently, so much as his stance is different. Ayoob's stance sounds like the classic Weaver stance, whereas Jerry uses an isosceles stance.

IMO, it's counterproductive to categorize one as a "defense" stance and the other as a "competition" stance. Competition shooters typically use the isosceles stance because it can make lateral movement easier, which isn't a bad attribute in a defense stance when you think of it.

Bottom line: Both are perfectly acceptable stances: Try both, and use the one that works best for you.

Jerry does say something about pulling the trigger AS you line up on the target. Is that a really stupid idea in a defensive situation?

That's the method competitive shooters use for getting your shot off ASAP, but good competitive shooters are getting a good sight picture before they actually fire the shot. IOW, they aren't mindlessly pulling the trigger; you therefore needs to beware of practicing this inappropriately, lest you get in the habit of pulling the trigger simply because you quickly got the gun on target. If you're not competing, I wouldn't even start doing this. JMHO.

 

[1KPerDay]

Your link doesn't work BTW... looks like you copy/pasted your post from another forum where it was already abbreviated for display.

 

[dovedescending]

As long as I'm rambling (I promise I'll start individual threads in the future), how concealable is an OWB holster like Galco's SILHOUETTE high-ride, for summer carry?

 

[Guillermo]

http://www.myoutdoortv.com/video/videoBCID.php?v=59632999001

looks to me like both Jerry and Massad use a very similar high grip

 

[dovedescending]

What I was refering to was Jerry's bent wrist on his right hand, and the flexed elbows as opposed to locking the arm straight. I find my current technique works pretty well up to about 10 yards, 2.5"-3" groups when drawing quickly from under a shirt, in about 5 seconds tops. Not stellar performance, but much better than I did when I started out. Haven't done much by way of moving and shooting, although I understand a backwards diagonal vector is good?

 

[MrBorland]

What I was refering to was Jerry's bent wrist on his right hand, and the flexed elbows as opposed to locking the arm straight.

Isosceles vs Weaver stance.

 

[David E]

I submit Miculec's competition rules are different than self-defense rules. Getting on the trigger fast to save a split second IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT by a highly trained PROFESSIONAL is one thing in a SPORTING situation. For the AVERAGE CITIZEN, who is not nearly as trained, and in a SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION it is courting disaster.

Yes, as the disaster being courted is that the goodguy is too slow getting off his first shot because he waited until his gun was completely extended before placing his finger on the trigger. Maybe he even uttered an unnecessary, "Drop your weapon!" and waited to see if the badguy complied.

There is "threat managment" and there is defending your life as fast as you possibly can. While there is some overlap, these are very different dynamics.

To determine which one you're dealing with, you need to ask: why are you drawing your gun in the first place?

The answer to that will dictate the proper response. Is he a suspicious fellow poking about by your garage late at night? Or did he just kill 3 people in your presence and now he's bringing his gun to bear on you and your kids?

In the former, it may not be necessary to draw your gun at all, much less begin the trigger pull during the draw.

In the latter, if you wait until your gun is fully extended before even touching the trigger, that 1/4 - 1/2 second could well be the difference between living or not.

The prudent man knows the difference in a heartbeat and masters both dynamics.

 

[9mmepiphany]

you've got a lot of questions going at the same time and you're not setting parameters for answers either. part of getting good/reliable answers is to ask good questions. i'll address the questions that i have training/experience with.

there are 2 paths to training for defensive shooting with a common goal.
1. one path is geared toward limited time/feed back and questionable followup/practice by the shooter.
2. the other is geared toward a shooter who wants to continue to improve through practice

posted by Quoheleth
This is in direct violation to Rule #3 (finger on trigger before sights are on target) and #4 (where will your bullet go if it does AD?).

do you mean that you take your finger off the trigger after each shot while the gun is in recoil?

what Jerry is talking about the key to shooting quickly and accurately and is the method currently taught for defensive use of the revolver. as you fire a shot, you should be resetting your trigger and preping for the next shot...which you fire as your sights return to your target. if you do not wish to fire another shot, you just stop pressing the trigger. if you don't have the ability to stop that trigger movement, i would suggest that you are slapping the trigger to begin with and should get additional training.

to wait until you sights are aligned on the target before starting your trigger press, only puts you further behind the response curve and invites a jerked trigger and misses

For the AVERAGE CITIZEN, who is not nearly as trained, and in a SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION it is courting disaster.

the correct method can be taught in a day, but it does require that the student elects to follow "Path #2" above

 

[dovedescending]

I apologize for my many questions and vague naivety. I'm just so excited to be part of this forum.

 

[9mmepiphany]

questions are a good thing...maybe fewer questions per thread

BTW: welcome to the forum

 

[1KPerDay]

Interesting vid; thanks.

 

[earplug]

Size of you hand

Your hand and finger size will determine your best handgun grip.
I think Jerry Miculek has very large paws.
Your holster and grip shape should complement your physical shape and strengths.
Work on a consistent draw. grip and trigger stroke. Don't forget to have you weak hand apply lots of pressure to hold the gun steady and control recoil. This will allow your trigger finger to relax and do its thing.

 

[ArmedBear]

A side note, I wouldn't worry about how competition shooters hold their guns, just like I don't worry about how competition fighters fight. Competition is a watered down game that doesn't usually have too much to do with real life, where your targets fight back. Holding a gun and moving like the competitors do can get you shot, stabbed, disarmed, etc.

One of the best competition shooters around here is also the head firearms instructor for the police academy, where they still have to qualify at 50 yards with a stock Glock .40 -- one of the last places with 50 yard qualification. He also taught for the FBI, and was a field agent for a long time.

He says the "Weaver vs. Isosceles" debate is long-running, but silly. Iscosceles is what shooters under extreme stress will do naturally, EVEN IF they have been extensively trained exclusively using Weaver. The FBI actually tested this on classes of cadets.

The Isosceles is probably more stable for most people, but don't be fooled into thinking that it means that you are in a perfect, stiff triangle. Every individual will find a slightly different stance that works best. For some people, it will look more like a Weaver. For others, it will look more like an Isosceles. Try it for yourself. Get to know your body and your gun.

All of that said, in a close-range defensive situation, don't wait, and don't assume you can get in a distance-shooting stance before you have to fire -- or that said stance won't expose you to danger. What if you are carjacked, for example?

Practice shooting in other positions, like your hands across the front of your body, the gun held close, and shooting across your chest. BE CAREFUL of the forcing cone, ejection port, etc.

 

[9mmepiphany]

while i also advocate learning to shoot from a number of different positions, that isn't how you should start out.

the most important ability is shooting is the ability to hit your target...otherwise, you're just spraying lead and praying for a hit.

once you've learned to stand, grip and control the trigger while holding the sights in alignment on your intended target and are able to consistently place rounds on target, then you're ready to try other things. otherwise it would be learning to gallop on a horse without every learning to mount it

 

[ArmedBear]

Said police/FBI instructor also said that, under stress, in real-world situations, many people shoot one-handed naturally -- and accurately.

I'd say, start with a comfortable variant of Isoceles, learn to hit the target, then branch out. Instruction or coaching can be more valuable than it sounds. There's a lot of subtlety to good pistol shooting, that's not visible to the observer.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Instruction or coaching can be more valuable than it sounds. There's a lot of subtlety to good pistol shooting, that's not visible to the observer.

this is extremely true...reading a book or watching a DVD will give you an idea, but it won't teach you to shoot.

it's like trying to learn karate from a book...and points out the difference between Chinese and Japanese martial arts

 

[230therapy]

My experience with the Hoffners holster is that it failed to release the gun 1/3 of the time. Go with another make and model of holster.

I follow McGivern's method of holding the gun, with some modifications by Miculek. I'm not sure how he developed his grip.

 

[Sam1911]

Having watched both Jerry Miculek and Massad Ayoob shoot the same course of fire on the same day, with greatest respect to both, just do whatever Mr. Jerry does -- if you can! Mr. Ayoob was very competent, smooth, and quick. Mr. Jerry was ... himself. And that's close to magic.

Here is the best collection of Jerry's videos I've found (for free): http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM4

If you're looking to improve your revolver shooting, I'd watch each of those over many times, practicing with my (unloaded) revolver to try to do just what he shows you. He certainly isn't teaching you any BAD habits! (You do need to understand the idea of "staging" the trigger. It is only used in specific moments and isn't the same thing as clearing your home walking around with the trigger half pulled.)

His techniques are very sound. The things that DON'T translate from competition to the "real world" aren't generally shooting techniques anyway...

I use a Hoffner's IWB "Miurage" holster for my 629 and love it. (See here:http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6206667&postcount=8) I did make a simple modification, but it has been flawless. Now, I was using it primarily in competition...and I suppose that doesn't translate out to the "real world"...

 

[dovedescending]

Sam, it won't let me access your post. I'm not sure why. 230therapy, do you know exactly what it was that caused the holster to retain so... effectively? My understand is that the retention is adjustable; maybe you had it too tight? Just curious.

 

[Gunfighter123]

A side note, I wouldn't worry about how competition shooters hold their guns, just like I don't worry about how competition fighters fight. Competition is a watered down game that doesn't usually have too much to do with real life, where your targets fight back. Holding a gun and moving like the competitors do can get you shot, stabbed, disarmed, etc.

Sorry but I have to disagree with that part of your post. Competition is the "test bed" for techniques and tactics --------- a person can THINK they are the best but untill you try the same in some sort of "competition" it is all just theory. In the very early days of Mixed Martial Arts { MMA } and still today in "underground" mostly illegal MMA competitions , it was proved what would work and what was for "show" ---- Example , if you hit someone hard enough in the nose , the "nose bone" will be driven into the brain , killing them. ---- How many fighters/football players etc. etc. have had their nose completely crushed and how many have died from it ??

I think be it IPSC , IDPA , 3-gun Action,Skeet, MMA or even Paintball --- any "competitor" that has trained will beat a untrained non-competitor 99 times out of a 100.

I have fought inside and outside the ring --- I've also fought Eskrima full contact stick fighting , yes - we did wear head gear and padded gloves and we did Compete against each other. That is as close as you can get to a "target shooting back" in that form of fighting .

Anyway ------- I use a "Boxers Stance" or some say a Modified Weaver --- my left hand and left foot are forward , left leg is bent a bit , weight is 60% on left leg and 40% on right leg --- you "lean" into the gun to lessen recoil --- same stance if I shoot rifle , shotgun or handguns.

When I shoot either revolvers or semi-autos , both my elbows are SLIGHTLY bent to the ground ---- if both elbows are locked straight out , the handgun will Recoil MORE. If you doubt this ---- clasp both hands together and lock your arms/elbows straight out. Now have a six year old pull down on your fists ---- then , try the same thing with both elbows bent and tell us which way is more "solid" .