High water mark in pump riot guns?

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Any thoughts on the high water mark in pump riot guns.

Everyone raves about the Model 12, the Model 37 and the 870 Wingmaster.

But I think my High Standard Flite King 18-7 feels like it is made and designed as good or better.

Here it is with my Stevens 620:


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I'm no expert but this is about high enough water mark for me. :) An oldie but a goodie, a model 1897 original riot takedown made in 1940.

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I have a 1969 Ithaca DS Riot, a High Standard Flite King Riot , Model 12 Riot, and a home made Model 97 Riot.Along with other "Riot types"
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but I think this one is past the "high point", all though very good

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and this one is just about perfect IMHO after quite a few training courses and use around the ranch (it is the 4 th gen of my 870 defensive shotties)
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The drawback with the 1897 is that it's pretty easy to remove significant flesh with the bolt if you don't get used to having the bolt coming out the rear of the receiver. ;) This is a training issue, not a gun fault.

High water mark? I'd say a tie between the 870 WM/PM and the 590/590A1, but we are splitting hairs. YMMV.

The really hard thing with 12 ga American-designed, American-made pumps is to find one that's bad. Actually, even finding one that's only so-so is hard. They have almost all been superior guns: rugged, reliable and affordable.
 
I'd go with a pre 1970 Ithaca 37, these guns seemed to be the consensus best of all the shotguns used in the Vietnam war, which probably saw more combat shotgun use than any war before or after.
 
I now offically enjoy my IAC 982.You know the Norinco knockoff of the 870. Ghost ring sights are great.
 
There's a lot of gooduns out there, clean back to the Burgess.

There's more good defensive shotguns than defensive shotgunners. Help to change that.
 
I've owned, and carried on duty, the following: Beretta 1201FP, Benelli M1 Super90, Remington 870, Mossberg 500 w/ghost ring sights and a 1951-vintage Winchester Mdl. 12. It's a toss-up between the Beretta 1201FP and the Benelli M1 Super90, though I did win a tactical shotgun competition with a bone-stock Remington 870.
 
In deciding the high point in pump guns you have to divide the contenders into First Generation guns and Second Generation.

The First Generation guns were designed from the 1890's up to WWII.
These First Gen guns were pretty much all forged and milled steel guns, and were tanks that just never wore out.
There are verified cases of Winchester Model 12's used as aerial training guns for pilots and aircrew that fired 500,000 rounds during WWII.

Of the First Gen guns, the Winchester Model 12 is probably the top due to the quality of steels used, and the high end workmanship. It's that quality that edges the other First Gen guns out.
Other guns like the Ithaca Model 37 were great guns, but Winchester was just a step above in quality.

The Second Generation guns were designed from the end of WWII to the 1990's.
Of these, the Remington 870 is the winner, for much the same reason the Model 12 was the top gun of it's era. Remington simply built a better quality gun from tougher parts.
The 870 got it right by using a forged and milled steel receiver with heavy-duty fabricated internals.
Remington's design was and still is one of the simplest designs and uses stronger internal parts.
Some of the very high round count clay pigeon shooters say the 870 starts to develop cracks in the receiver somewhere around 250,000 rounds.
The police have used the 870 almost exclusively since the 1950's and it has an unbeatable reputation for durability and quality.

The other Second Gen pumps almost always used cheaper to make aluminum receivers with stamped internals, and some plastics. Internal designs are usually more complicated, and use smaller parts.
According to the clay shooters, these aluminum guns start breaking at around the 50,000 to 60,000 round mark.

The Third Generation guns are the plastic guns that have started appearing.
These are all too new to indicate a clear winner.
Come back in 20 years for the verdict on these.
 
I've owned, and carried on duty, the following: Beretta 1201FP, Benelli M1 Super90, Remington 870, Mossberg 500 w/ghost ring sights and a 1951-vintage Winchester Mdl. 12. It's a toss-up between the Beretta 1201FP and the Benelli M1 Super90, though I did win a tactical shotgun competition with a bone-stock Remington 870.

Whatever else is true, I can state with absolute certainty that the Beretta 1201FP and the Benelli M1 will never be part of any high water group of pump riot guns. ;)
 
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