Hollowpoint or Ball?

[Loosedhorse]

Rethink.

Thanks, geek--but guess what? I re-thought, and came up with exactly the same answer.

But somewhere (.380, .32, or .22) they will tell you you're better off with FMJ, if you're going to carry that caliber at all. [emphasis added]

"Use enough gun"

Robert Ruark, speaking on hunting dangerous game. He was not talking about self-defense.

If we're resorting to bromides as advice, how about, "First Rule of Gunfights: Bring a Gun."

 

[Deanimator]

do you honestly think your attacker is going to care what type of ammo you use to shoot him with?.....

No, but the five year old standing behind him will if I get a through and through and hit her too.

My EXCLUSIVE reason for using hollowpoints in EVERY carry gun I own is to do everything I reasonably can to ONLY shoot the person who NEEDS shooting.

In Ohio, I'm immune from suit from an assailant if it's ruled a good shoot. If I shoot through him and hit somebody else, they can sue me all day, every day and twice on Sunday.

I will NEVER carry FMJs unless FORCED to by black letter law.

 

[Taurus 66]

Load your rounds as such - HP first round, ball second round, HP third round, ball fourth round, and so on ... so you will have both ready for action.

 

[gym]

Use Powerball or other ammo with the ball in the hollow tip, if you are concerned. They should feed well in just about any pistol. Hornaday has a new one also, there are more every day.

 

[Manco]

P.S. The ban on expanding bullets by the Hague only applies to the military. I believe there have been a lot of complaints about the lack of stopping power of the 9's issued to our forces lately.

With all due respect to those who serve, I think they'd complain about the stopping power of anything they use, short of the M2 BMG. While I think that they need rifle rounds that are significantly more effective at long range, pistol rounds are a secondary concern at best, and any service pistol caliber will be short on true "stopping power" per round, in my opinion (that's why pistols need to be fired rapidly in order to stop, in my view).

anyone heard of the federal expanding full metal jacket?

Yes, and I would categorize it along with hollow-points as expanding ammo for the purposes of this discussion (i.e. the OP's actual question). If feeding reliability is the topic, then it should be just like FMJ.

Use Powerball or other ammo with the ball in the hollow tip, if you are concerned. They should feed well in just about any pistol. Hornaday has a new one also, there are more every day.

It may depend on the caliber, but if you're referring to Hornady's Critical Defense, then these bullets typically just have their cavities filled in (and maybe a tad extra) as opposed to plastic balls that change the bullets' profiles substantially (i.e. giving them an actual ogive).

By the way, another feature of .40 S&W that could be considered an advantage is that even FMJ practice ammo is a good test for hollow-point compatibility because the bullets all have a flat nose (meplat). This implies that guns chambered in this caliber were designed with this sort of bullet profile in mind. I'm not trying to promote the caliber, I just happened to notice a couple of characteristics that are apropos to the topics being discussed.

 

[Weevil]

By the way, another feature of .40 S&W that could be considered an advantage is that even FMJ practice ammo is a good test for hollow-point compatibility because the bullets all have a flat nose (meplat). This implies that guns chambered in this caliber were designed with this sort of bullet profile in mind. I'm not trying to promote the caliber, I just happened to notice a couple of characteristics that are apropos to the topics being discussed.

That is an interesting point.

.40 S&W is "modern" caliber that was born in the hollow-point era and every gun made for this caliber was designed to use HPs. As mentioned even the FMJ has an HP profile.

So the old "better reliability" arguement just doesn't hold water when you're talking about the .40.


Personally I prefer HPs in the service calibers.

Expansion and jagged edges for increased tissue damage and greater wound volume, rather than the straight through ice-pick wounds produced by FMJ. With "modern" state of the art HPs penetration is not an issue as they have been thoroughly tested for proper penetration. Plus the expanded bullet helps prevent over-penetration and even if it does exit the target the expanded slug is far less likely to seriously injure a bystander than the FMJ which blows right through and remains intact.

Then there is the psychological factors of getting shot. HPs are far more likely to get their attention due to the increased wound severity. An expanding bullet that opens up into a little buzzsaw is more likely to be noticed than a hard smooth object blowing right through.

As to reliability I solve that by using "modern" pistols that were designed for use with HPs. Now if you're using some old antique or some military surplus pistol then yeah FMJ is probably your best bet, but any quality pistol built in the last 30 years or so should work just fine with HPs.

I honestly don't see any advantage at all to using FMJ and several downsides.

 

[antiquus]

Depends on the caliber. .380 and Mak, I use ball during the winter, hp in summer. Anything more powerful, use HP because Mr. Overpenetrating Round will get you sued to the point you are living in your car. The military doesn't care about overpenetration, from their point of view the more bodies in the way of the bullet the better, so i wouldn't take my cue from military practice in this.

Remember that police/FBI/Border Patrol choices in calibers are designed to defeat barriers, then penetrate through an arm with sufficient force to penetrate the chest cavity deeply. Even then, they use HP's and are very nervous about overpenetrating rounds.

You might ponder the fact almost all civilian shootings are frontal shots, not through barriers (because if there is a barrier you probably are hiding behind it and want it there) and a shot from front to back, center of mass, will likely not be stopped but much unless it hits a bone or the heart, small target. Very likely it will pass through a lung - mostly air.

 

[Weevil]

Agreed caliber does matter.


.380 and down I use FMJ. The lesser calibers just don't have the power to drive an expanded bullet deep into the vitals. The bullets are just too light and the velocities too low to have the momentum and force needed for proper penetration of an HP.

However in the sevice calibers 9mm Luger and up, their main advantage is the fact that you can use an HP and get good deep penetration. But even with 9mm I like to use a +P round with a mid-range bullet weight.

 

[gym]

try the golden sabre 102 grain HP in your 380, it may change your mind.

 

[Weevil]

Yeah it maybe the best .380 HP there is......


.......but a 9mm +P HP is alway gonna be better.



I will agree though that hollow-point bullet technology has came a long way and there are some good .380 HPs that will get a good penertration but it's still less than 12". The Golden Sabre .380s are only getting about 9.5" of penetration.

http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1628.htm



I'd rather have a t least a 9mm and preferably a +P 9mm for use with HPs.

The 9mm 124 gr GS bullets get about 13" of penetration and the 124gr +P's get about 14.3".

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm


Until somebody can get at least 12" of penetration with good expansion from a .380 HP I'll stick with FMJ and at least 9mm for HPs.



That is one nasty looking .380 slug though.

I'd sure hate to have that thing grinding through me even if it was only 9"!!!

 

[THplanes]

Golden Loki shows several .380 HP that make 12" and give some expansion.

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

 

[Heretic]

The point I was trying to make is I think the Hague ban on expanding bullets is stupid. The reason we have a military is to kill people and break things. The 5.56 can do real damage at range when loaded with soft or hollow points and I think we should issue them. The 9mm has greatly increased "stopping power" when it expands to .45 cal or so. FMJ is for poking holes in tin cans. It isn't much good for anything else.
Why do we allow our potential enemies to dictate what we can use to defend ourselves from them.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The point I was trying to make is I think the Hague ban on expanding bullets is stupid.

Perhaps we should look at the historical reason for the ban before saying that.

It was argued that HP or SP ammo was more likely to produce fatal or amputating wounds than ball ammo, and if we like the idea of efforts (like the Hague or Geneva agreements) toward the curious goal of making war "less inhumane," then banning expanding projectiles makes sense...if they do in fact the percent of casualties who are killed or severely maimed, as opposed to less severely maimed or even just temporarily incapacitated.

The British and Americans who argued against the ban at the Hague did not say that HPs weren't more devastating; in fact it was specifically because they were, and would more quickly stop a charging enemy, that they wanted those bullets kept legal.

Modern strategists like the concept of wounding enemy, given the resources that will be spent in recovering and treating the wounded. Of course, that breaks down with an enemy that is fine with leaving its wounded on the field.

Lots of ways to view this issue, but remember that the "Kill people and break things" argument can be used also to try to legalize chlorine, mustard gas, and biologicals. And the summary execution of POWs, and....

 

[mljdeckard]

And Dean, good HP ammo is just as dangerous to whatever is behind the target as ball is. If it's not likely to completely traverse a human target, I wouldn't carry it.

 

[pioneer461]

Check ammo makers and see how many make FMJ self defense ammo. That would be a clue.

Federal makes something they call Expanding Full Metal Jacket, but the thin jacket only covers a polymer filled HP cavity.

Some flat-earth folks refuse to admit that expanding ammo stops bad guys better than ball ammo. Modern self defense ammo gives you the best of both worlds, penetration AND expansion. Welcome to the 21st Century.

 

[BADUNAME37]

My take on this whole subject is, whatever I have in my gun at the time I need it is what is going to be fired, whether it be calm loads in HP or FMJ, or wild loads in HP or FMJ.

My take on it is that I hope I never have to use my weapon to save my life or those around me. If I do have to use it, my opinion is that shot placement will make the biggest difference. The way to ensure good shot placement - even EXCELLENT shot placement - is to shoot, shoot, then shoot some more!

Hopefully, if I ever do need to draw my gun, the gun itself will stop the attack because the attacker does not feel like getting shot that day. Or, the attacker sees my Crimson Trace on his/her nose and realizes he/she better stop right there.

If it comes down to needing to fire my weapon, the last thing I am going to be thinking about is how deep will this bullet go? Short of a T&T shot where others behind him/her may get shot, I don't obsess about what type ammo (JHP, FMJ, etc) I happen to have! For those who state that a hollow point is best for so many reasons, you might as well throw all that out the window if, for some reason, those HP cavities get filled with some kind cloth, clothing, etc and they suddenly act just like a FMJ!

At least if you are using FMJ, non-expanding bullets to start out with, there will be no surprises IF the bullets should fail to mushroom! So, in that respect, the FMJ is - at minimum - reliable in that it should penetrate the same each time (assuming the assailant is not wearing a bullet-proof vest).

 

[BADUNAME37]

Hardball, even .45ACP, is dismal against flesh. All it does is poke a narrow hole with little tissue disruption. Those who think hardball is a good stopper have obviously never shot a critter with the stuff. It's 2011, use a good bullet.

Don't rule out crushed and broken bones and their damage as they quickly move out of the way of the FMJ! Of course, if you hit the bad guy in the fleshy part of his body and the bullet goes clear through without hitting any bones, that is a poor shot to begin with, one which I don't believe having HP's or not having HP's will make that much difference.

Now, should the bullet break bone, and the bone fragments need to quickly move out of the way, that is a different story as damage will be done by high-speed (sharp) bone fragments moving QUICKLY away from the wound channel.

 

[Malamute]

Orginally posted by CraigC
Hardball, even .45ACP, is dismal against flesh. All it does is poke a narrow hole with little tissue disruption. Those who think hardball is a good stopper have obviously never shot a critter with the stuff. It's 2011, use a good bullet.

I agree with this comment. Perhaps people really are easier to stop than small game, but having shot hundreds of cottontails, jack rabbits, marmots, etc up to coyotes with various rounds and loads, and opening them up to look at the results, you learn a little about killing things with handguns. Round nose bullets of any sort are horrible stoppers or killers on anything I've shot with them. Semi wadcutters make a huge step up in performance, and hollow points again make a big step up. I believe it's tissue damage rather than energy that kills. Energy may have a bearing on tissue damage, but it isn't the whole story.

Jim Cirillo, in his book "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights" said that he talked to coroners that told him when round nose bullets were used, they couldn't tell the difference between a 32 or a 45 wound. When he started using hot hollow point loads in the 38 spl, they commented "What the He** did you shoot them with?!!" Cirillo was searching for better loads yet, but the difference between round nose loads and hollow points was very dramatic in effect. I'm not the least bit surprised at Cirillos results and conclusions.

Elmer Keith also commented about shooting small game with 45 autos with ball ammo and having them run off. I've had similar experiences.

Yes, bigger is better in many regards, but bullet type and performance make a big difference also. I'd rather carry a 38 spl with good +p hollow point loads than a 45 with round nose loads for a protection gun if that was the only choices. YMMV


As to the idea that hollow points may clog up and not expand, so you may as well use an inferior round right off the bat, because you know it will be inferior, simply doesnt make sense.

 

[Heretic]

Loosedhorse, your point is well taken, but when politics require that our guys are put in harms way armed with a cartridge that is really more suited for varmiting than a battle rifle, any edge is better than none.
Out to 200 yards,the 5.56 is debatable. After 200, worthless.
P.S. ever hear of depleted uranium!

 

[Shadow 7D]

If you are so concerned about shooting what you carry, Magtech and Speer Lawman that design FMJ range ammo to mirror the performance of their SD/HP ammo, it's geared to the LE community, and is more expensive than FMJ plinking ammo, BUT, is a considerable saving on HP ammo.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...er-lawman-155gr-tmj-ammo/cName/40-sw-fmj-ammo

 

[Claude Clay]

Loosedhorse...to paraphrase ball vs hp/sp: dead is dead but a wound by ball is more likely to be fully recoverable than one made by hp/sp. so if you ain't kilted on the battlefield the rest of your life will be less compromised cause of the ball ammo. makes sense.

on home soil i carry ball in winter and hp the 3 other seasons. Power ball may change how those starting out make a decision but for me i am set in my ways: gold dot hp in 9/40/45acp. 38's are black talons and when/if i run out of them--LSWC; 32 & 380 are ball winter and silvertips otherwise.
as always; its what runs in your gun and has you feeling you made the right choice. the latter being only determined following a shooting. so to me its an answer i hope to never have to find out about.

regarding some comments about how it must feel to be shot...i've spoken with many (a mix of 14 or so bg's and bystanders over the course of 40 years ) who have caught 22's, 32's and 9's. the most common comment was: i didn't know i was hit till it was over/ i saw the blood. than it either didn't hurt much, burned and after the adrenalin wore off--it hurt real bad. fewer said it hurt/ burned instantly. a few i knew who got 45's were unable to comment.

 

[Heretic]

Shadow 7D love your quote. Loved Dune

 

[jwr_747]

when the world was a less openly violent place,a pistol shooter named jeff Cooper was ask the FMJ vs JHP question.his reply was 2 to the chest and 2 to the head,the dead guy didn't care which one it was...jwr

 

[Frank Ettin]

when the world was a less openly violent place,a pistol shooter named jeff Cooper was ask the FMJ vs JHP question.his reply was 2 to the chest and 2 to the head,the dead guy didn't care which one it was...

Nonetheless, there has been considerable improvement in bullet design, and in general, a quality JHP is the better choice.

 

[Sidd]

HP and ball

I personally recomend HP, BALL can be great for practicing the problem you get can with balls no enough shock it dsnt prduce hydrostatic energy is the HP. Also Ball is nt recomended in a group of many people as it may penetrate and hit some one you did not intend. my advice is to use HP.