home defense legal question

[dsffsll]

Hello,

I've been wondering if someone was attempting to break into my house would it be legal to shoot them before they enter the house?

Like shoot them through a window if they're visible or shoot them through the door before they come inside?

I just wanted to know for sure because if something like that ever happened I don't want to hesitate protecting myself and my house because of possible legal issues.

Thanks, I live in Florida btw.

 

[BamaBob]

I would think that you could bein the wrong. Your life has to be threatened to be totaly in the clear as i understand it. this could be construed many ways but probably not by some one trying to get in. iam not a lawyer but i play one on the internet

 

[kd7nqb]

I am so very much not an attorney but I would argue that at the point where it is 100% clear that they are making forced entry or you see a weapon then you are clear to use whatever force you need to stop the threat. HOWEVER if upon you showing force if the intruder bails and runs, don't dare shoot them in the back.

There is an old saying about make sure that the bad guy falls inside the house rather than outside.

I dont know the details of Florida but do know that their castle doctrine is supposedly very good.

 

[scottaschultz]

This is why you NEED to take a CCW class. Its not just about handgun familiarization and shooting techniques, but it will also cover the legal aspects of owning and carrying a gun in your state. When you take the class, it will answer this and so many more questions.

If you already took a class and they didn't cover stuff like this, demand you money back!

Scott

 

[JMusic]

This would depend on the threat. You have to be concerned about your life or your loved ones and it can't be a possibility it has to be a reasonable doubt. It also depends on the county and state the state of crime control in that area. All of this goes into the equation. I can tell you I'm in a very conservative state and if I poped someone It would usually be kosher. But once they review my 55 years of life it may look like homicide. I would use non lethal force. Now if they are inside its a different matter. My only concern would be shooting a friend and relative or there would be no warning at all.

Don't be a victim, don't "try" to be a hero, be a person who Protrays confidense and ability. Non lethal out side the house first if they continue to approuch, well kill the dickhead and get two lawyers , a good crimminal defense lawyer, and a better civil defence.


Jim

 

[esq_stu]

would it be legal to shoot them

There is no law that says it is legal to shoot someone.

Let me re-phrase it for you. How about this:

If I shoot someone, will my claim that it was self defense convince the police not to arrest me, the prosecutor not to charge me, or a jury not to convict me?

Can you convince anyone that someone was going to try and kill you because they were trying to break in? That's what you have to do. It is not automatic.

For sure more facts would be needed. Anyone that tells you otherwise is doing you a disservice.

Could you see them and tell that it was not your next door neighbor's kid come home drunk?
Could you tell whether they were armed?
Did they say something like "I'm gonna kill whoever I find in this house"?

You probably can convince someone that they weren't just trying to use your bathroom. Beyond that, you will need more to get a free pass.

 

[Cosmoline]

There are way too many local variables to answer this question. What's perfectly legal in Alaska would get you sent to prison in another state. Does your state have a castle doctrine in place? Do you have a duty to retreat? Look to your own code.

 

[kanook]

If you already took a class and they didn't cover stuff like this, demand you money back!

Scott

Not all classes that are offered give legal advice. The NRA basic pistol class which is all that is required to get a FL. permit does not speak of the legal aspect at all.

The laws change daily and the last thing I'm going to do is give "Legal" advice not knowing if the person fully understand the answer and knowing that the law could change at anytime.

I would suggest getting a Firearm law book written by a Lawyer so that if the laws change you can call them and ask for help.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The OP says he lives in Florida. There are no CCW classes required in Florida.

As to the law, what the OP talks about does seem to fall into legit self defense in most places.

Florida, as well as many others, allow for deadly force to prevent or stop the commission of a "forcible felony" or similar language. Florida statute 776.08 defines this as:

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Florida statutes in part 776.013 covers the use of deadly force to protect the home.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

So, it appears that someone in the process of breaking into your home is subject to the use of deadly force.

There are some exceptions in the law so it's worth reading in it's entirety for sure. I didn't post all those, that's why section (2) is missing from above. It's rather long. Link below to the whole thing.

So you're presumed to be in fear of your life if someone is kicking down the door, regardless of whether or not they are armed.

That's pretty standard for states with so called "Castle Doctrines". All that said, you still have to convince a prosecutor that you were in the right on all the legal points.

So, in general, yes you could use deadly force against someone who is outside your home purely from a theoretical legal point of view if they are committing one of the listed crimes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statuTes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0776/titl0776.htm

Not legal advice, all the usual disclaimers, just citing the statutes. Everyone has to decide this stuff for themselves. There are moral questions here that the law can't begin to cover.

 

[kanook]

The OP says he lives in Florida. There are no CCW classes required in Florida.

Yes there is. They student has to prove capabilities with a Firearm. Most gunshow classes are one bullet and a lot of talk. The hunter safety course I have been told will work. Some LEO dept.s offer a class. Prior military or leo training. Or you can take the NRA basic pistol class.

 

[RandKL]

There is no law that says it is legal to shoot someone.

You might want to rephrase that again, Stu

rich

 

[Art Eatman]

The OP's question has nothing to do with handgun licensing.

While the phrasing of the law as cited by TR indicates a possible judgement of "clean shoot" as self defense, I suggest that if such intruder does not show a weapon that one should wait as long as possible before using deadly force.

It's the ancient "What if...?" game: What if it's a drunk at the wrong house; his key doesn't work, so he's trying to do a Professor Gates number?

So while arming oneself is wisdom, so is having your wife dial 911 and report the problem as you loudly yell, "Go away!"

Where actual breaking and entering has occurred and then self-defense shooting has resulted, the history of Florida court or Grand Jury decisions has favored the resident--and even moreso with the recent improvements in the law.

 

[6t6tripowr]

Another Point to Consider

Time of day could be a mitigating factor here. 1:30 in the morning is a lot scarier for the occupant when it appears someone is attempting to break in.

 

[Diggers]

I think you should also ask yourself the question of "SHOULD YOU" shoot some one who appears to be breaking into your house. There seem to be alot of reasons why that may not be a wise thing to do.

Florida law does seem to cover the could part, though I think you WILL have to be able to articulate why you felt your life was in danger.

Don't think that just because a law says you can do something that is the final word. Our society takes killing people very seriously, as it should, and DA's will put you under a microscope for that kind of incident.

The situation surrounding the incident matters. (i.e. Were you drinking that night? Did you just wake up andwere you disoriented? Was it light enough be certain you didn't know the person? ***This is where shooting through a door becomes a really dumb idea.*** )

Do keep in mind, the DA will look at the situation from the point of view "How was this guy (you) in the wrong" NOT "How was he in the right." That's their job.

 

[scottaschultz]

The OP's question has nothing to do with handgun licensing.

My point was that many CCW classes go beyond the simple handgun proficiency and stress responsible gun ownership. While gun ownership is a right, there are also responsibilities that go along with it that sometimes get overlooked.

Scott

 

[1shot3kills]

in texas you can

i know in tarrant county there is a after dark law.if there is someone in your back yard or on your property and it is dark out,and you feel your or someone else is in danger for your life,you can shoot them.but you better not shoot them in the back,and be sure you kill them.

this was a quote directly from a fort worth police officer who was dispatched to investigate and take a burgalary report to my dads and i place of business.

the reason for killing is because there wont be 2 stories,just yours.

and like i said this is exactly what the fort worth police officer told us.

 

[mustang_steve]

The Class I am planning on attending to get my FL CCW actually requires a 100-round shooting course that involves multiple moving targets, etc. While I could get the basic course...I feel if a legal issue ever arises that it would be prudent to be able to say I got tested well above and beyond what any state's handgun proficiency requirements are.

 

[TexasRifleman]

i know in tarrant county there is a after dark law.if there is someone in your back yard or on your property and it is dark out,and you feel your or someone else is in danger for your life,you can shoot them.but you better not shoot them in the back,and be sure you kill them.

That is not even remotely close to Texas law. Pretty much all of that is incorrect. You might want to read up on all of that.

The actual Texas law involving things after dark is very different than your post suggests.

If you want, start a thread on it and I'll post the details but they would be irrelevant to this thread about Florida.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Yes there is. They student has to prove capabilities with a Firearm.

No, sorry. There are no required classes to obtain a CCW in Florida. You must demonstrate proficiency but there is not a requirement to take a class to do so, and there is no requirement to be instructed on the legal aspects of self defense.

You CAN find classes that teach it, but there is no requirement to do so to get the permit.

 

[Glamdring]

First take class with Mas, he posts on here once in a while. His 2nd home is in Florida.
http://www.ayoob.com/

Remember AOJ
Ability: Can he cause death or grave bodily harm. For example has a weapon.
Opportunity: Is he close enough and have enough time to cause death or grave bodily harm. For example is in the same room as you are.
Jeopardy: Is there a reason to believe he is going to cause death or grave bodily harm. For example at a gun range lots of people that have ability (armed) and opportunity (close enough to shoot you) but there is no reason to expect they will shoot you. So you would NOT be in jeopardy.
But if someone walks into a gunshop and points a gun at someone and says I am stealing all the guns here you would be in jeopardy and the criminal would have the ability (armed) and opportunity.

***
Someone maybe (Clint Smith?) has said to think about it this way "Are things going to get worse if I DON'T shoot?

 

[Glamdring]

In general your better off retreating to a safer spot (behind cover), telling them you are armed, to leave, & that police have been called. And call 911 leave line to 911 open.

That way if they come after you it will clearer to police and others that you were not looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

Note I am not arguing the legality of shooting someone coming thru window or door of house. Talking Tactics both shooting kind and legal kind. Proper tactics don't mean you win they just help your odds.

It is much better to force them to come to you through a fatal funnel for legal and combat reasons!

 

[Kleanbore]

I know in tarrant county there is a after dark law.if there is someone in your back yard or on your property and it is dark out,and you feel your or someone else is in danger for your life,you can shoot them.

As Texas Rifleman has responded elsewhere, there is a Texas state law that addresses the use of deadly force to protect tangible property at night .

There is another law that addresses personal defense per se. That one does not extend to your yard unless you are accosted there and are in imminent danger of death or serious injury.

But you better not shoot them in the back,and be sure you kill them.

So, do you think it would be lawful to take a life in the event that the threat had diminished? If so, think again.

this was a quote directly from a fort worth police officer who was dispatched to investigate and take a burgalary report to my dads and i place of business.

Not qualified legal advice, I'm afraid, and useless to you.

the reason for killing is because there wont be 2 stories,just yours. and like i said this is exactly what the fort worth police officer told us.

Bad advice. Ever hear of forensic evidence? Witnesses? Being charged with murder?

Get some qualified instruction, and get your legal advice from an attorney.

A great many falsehoods start with "a highway patrolman told me...".

 

[Prosser]

Your state has unique laws on such subjects. Find someone in your state, an attorney, even a DA, and ask his advice. Also, you are going to have to realize you are going to be tried by your peers.

 

[mljdeckard]

In MY state, if someone enters your home by violence or by stealth, with the intent to commit a felony (and in many cases the intent can be extrapolated from the stealth and violence,) then deadly force is authorized. A drunk guy going into the wrong house and passing out has no intent. A guy threatening you outside your door has not entered. A guy who knocks on the door, yells "hello!" and walks in did not enter by violence or stealth.

And think hard about what Prosser said. Some states have better laws to protect you from prosecution than others, but no matter where you live, all it takes is a D.A. who isn't convinced and a judge who has been sleeping on the couch for a week, and a jury will be deciding. Even if conviction is unlikely and grounds for appeal are obvious, your life has changed forever.

 

[1shot3kills]

texas has its castle doctorine

but tarrant county has its after dark clause,and it does state that you can defend yourself in your yard or property outside the house,i know this because a friend of mines dad shot someone in his yard,from inside the house through the window at 3 am in the morning.
it is a clause that protects the homeowner because at night you cant see,and if someone is in your yard at 3 am they are probably up to no good,and you dont know what they have or are capable of doing.if you dont beleive me check it out yourself.

if you are approached on your property by someone ,or you by accident wake up in middle of night to sounds through a window,or or outside your house,or get a call from neighbor saying there is someone creeping around your house,and you discover that that is happenig and you verbally ask them their porpose or what they are doing and you ask them to leave or if they approach you never tell them you have a gun or display it till last second,and they dont leave or continue to approach after you ask..you dont have to tell them you have a gun,al you have to do is defend with it
if you shot at someone to wound them you are a freakin idiot,and you pull a gun on someone who might have a gun and you dont really intend to use it you are a freakin idiot.because once you pull a gun ,and point it at a unknown assailent you have escalated the sitiuation that may force the unknown (who could be someone who dont care,and if they are there to commit a crime they will more than likely not be scared to use their gun).so in other words if you step outside to your yard with a gun hoping to scare a burgalar away or a rapist or they could be the kind that snuck into a families home in the middle of the night,murder the family,and hang out there for 3 days and eat the food and cook dope in the house then leave,........just like they did here in sansom park a few years ago.
thats why if you pull a gun on someone who came on your random property to commit any of numerous crimes you better be prepared to use it.just because it happens outside the shelter of your home doesnt mean it has diminished to a no longer dangerous situation,if you do you are a freakin fool.

and before you assume i havnt taken classes and that im just some fool running off at the mouth i used to be a commisioned officer for several security companies,my family owned elm fork winchester gun club in irving for years,when my stepdad dennis reed died it was sold.and a 30 year friend of the family is a criminal defense attorney for 25 years,my uncle is a dps state trooper,i have a aunt who works for the dea,my brother was military police,and my grandfather was a texas state ranger.

i try to leave my specifics out forums like this but it takes a person like you who tell me i need to get some classes and talk to attorney to get the right information.........let me ask you this ,have you contacted a attorney out of the phonebook and called them?i dont need to look in a phonebook or call one because i talk to one 4 or 5 times a week and barbecue with them everyother weekend.

i also talk to more than a fort worth cop when it comes to things like my dads buisiness being burgalarized 9 times on e lancaster.i said fort worth cop because he wasnt a relative he was someone who dont know me for ****.advice used by someone given to them by a relative usually dont stand up in a internet aurgument.


anything else you need to say?