Hopkins and Allen 12 Ga. Double SxS Hammer Gun - Model?

[Johnm1]

Picked this up for a decent price. Barrels are bright with no dings and they ring. It's on face and functions properly. Sidelock action. But my internet search can't confirn model and when it was made. I need someone who has the H&A shotgun book to be sure.

What I think it is is the Forehand Model Sidelock that H&A adopted and sold after the fire of 1900. I've read other accounts that what it was but this one doesn't have the word Forehand on it like the pictures I found in my internet search. It was inferred that H&A might have discontinued the use of the word 'Forehand' around 1906. But I don't know if H&A ever produced a sidelock model of their own. I'm pretty sure they produced a box lock model of their own after 1900.

Anyone with information/knowledge of what H&A produced?

I own enough H&A's I really need to buy Goforth's books. But I think the H&A Shotgun book was authored by someone else.

 

[PWC]

Looks like a box lock with xternal side hammers....to me

 

[Johnm1]

Nope. I took the side locks off and cleaned/lubed the inside. Definitely a sidelock. Loosen the one screw and use it to push out the other sideplate and then use thensame screw (or an appropriately sized punch to push the screw side sideplate.

I've taken a Lefever Nitro Special apart (not a real Lefever) and it is definitely a box lock and so much more complicated. Had to reinvent a 100 year old tool to remove/replace a broken firing pin.

 

[Johnm1]

The best description I can find on the internet is this post on the shotgun forum.

Hopkins & Allen Side by Side 12ga. 1902-1914?

www.shotgunworld.com

It describes the Old Model sidelock in a paragraph speaking to the 1902 Forehand models sold by Hopkins and Allen. But I have read that sometime between 1903 and 1906 H&A stopped using the Forehand moniker. Without the book I can't confirm that though. It does confirm they were available with decarbonized steel barrels aka fluid steel. I'm hoping it is closer to the 1906 date as I understand the fluid steel process improved quickly from its invention in the early 1880's.

The gun has to be 1900 or newer as it is marked Hopkins & Allen Arms Company. The name was changed from Hopkins and Allen Manufacturing Co. to Hopkins and Allen Arms Co in the 1899 or 1900 reorganization. I cant pin down the actual reorganization year. One article described the name changed to Hopkins and Allen Firearms Co but I think that is a mistake.

 

[Johnm1]

I didn’t realize this was going to be hard to find. Wonder if this would have been better posted in the shotgun forum. I hate the idea of joining another forum just to ask a single question. But there were some people on one of the shotgun forums that appeared to have some knowledge of the H&A shotguns.

 

[Johnm1]

Looks like a box lock with xternal side hammers....to me

My shotgun terminology leaves a lot to be desired. According to some information gathered on Shotgun World Forum, I have a H&A model built on the Davenport design. 4th model. So you were right, it is a boxlock frame, just with sideplates. Davenport was bought by H&A in 1901 but continued to operate under the Davenport name until 1910.

Here's the data collected from the other forum:

William Hastings Davenport's company also made and marked double-barrel, visible hammer guns in Providence, R.I. on Orange St., 1880-1882 and in Norwich, Conn. ca. 1890-1909. All are monbloc designs of which there were four models.
The 1st model made at Providence, ca. 1881, had hammers rising out of the boxlock frame.
The 2nd model, made in Norwich, Conn. about 1898, is a typical boxlock.
The 3rd model made in Norwich, Conn., ca. 1909, has small sidelocks set in larger boxlock frames. Its barrels have unnotched extensions and notched underlugs.
The 4th model, also from Norwich, possibly made after the 1901 takeover by Hopkins & Allen, also has sidelocks set in boxlock frames but the barrels have half moon lugs and notched barrel extensions.

 

[Johnm1]

Still trying to pick the fly poop from the pepper. But I found the below quote on the Long Island Firearms forum while continuing my search for more information on the side lock shotguns. Now how accurate the gun blue book was/is might be questioned. But if correct that would put the manufacture date between 1906 and 1909. Or maybe the introduction date was between 1906 and 1909. Or maybe the blue book is wrong.


copied from the gun blue book sxs

Hopkins & Allen purchased Forehand Arms Co. and W.H. Davenport and continued to produce their line of firearms, and after a few years dropped the Forehand name. In 1902, they offered the Forehand double boxlocks with or without outside hammers. Most models were offered in 12, 16 & 20 gauge. Sidelocks were added 1906-09. In 1902, the AA GRADE, a very high quality boxlock, was offered for $100 to $125. It had fine damascus barrels, straight grip, plain or automatic ejectors, fine wood, and engraving, and was competitive with some Remingtons, L.C. Smiths, Bakers and other fine guns of that era. This gun was very short lived and today is rare. One feature found on all H&A double barrel guns is the "rib extension" or "doll´s head."

 

[Johnm1]

100 plus year old corporate research is frustrating at best. I now have the Carder book on H&A tip up shotguns but really don't have any additional information. The carder book describes all of the H&A Double hammer guns as having a dolls head rib extension and even provided a detailed description with a photo and diagramxxv:


Mine has a rib extension but it isn't as shown above. Unless mine shown below can be considered a dolls head rib extension, mine isn't described in the Carder book. Mine is 'roundish' and is a rib extension. It's clearly a H&A Arms Co. Double Hammer Gun. So it's either not described accurately, very conceivable researching 100 year old information , or just not described. I'm inclined to believe there wasn't enough information available to Carder to accurately describe what I have.


Looking through the parts diagrams there is only one model that uses the same firing pin retention screw and main/hammer springs as mine has. And that is described in the 1911 parts catalog as a Hammer Double Gun No. 100. In the 1913 catalog in the Carder book the No. 100 appears but described as having a dolls head rib extension and a snap type forearm. Mine has a lever to remove the forearm that I gather is a Deeley & Edge design.

We've discussed mine as potentially being a Davenport design and that would make sense as the Davenport pictures use the screw firing pin retention instead of the firing pin bushing arrangement. Here is a picture of my butchered firing pin retention screw.




The earliest reference I can find to a sidelock double hammer gun that has most of the same features as mine is a 1910/1911 catalog supported by a 1913 parts list/diagram.

I don't know there is anymore that can be learned with the passing of time. I'd like to here more on the potential Davenport connection but I suspect there would be less documentation on that subject

Anything I'm missing?

 

[Johnm1]

I think we can assume that mine is a Davenport design. Below are some pictures of a Davenport Double Hammer Gun with the same characteristics as mine. Agree?