Hornady Frontier lead bullet w/ black powder?

[Joshboyfutre]

I want to load 45 colt cartridges for a Taylor & co. S.A.A. I have some hornady frontier lead 200g swc I'm wanting to load with black powder. I'm looking at one of these methods.
1- load it with a lubed wad under it
2- spray the bullets with alcohol and the smear bore butter on the knarling
3- leave the hornady lube alone and smear bore butter on the knarling over it AND use a lubed wad (probably go this route)

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[rodwha]

What are you considering firing these from? And do you know the bore dimensions vs the projectile diameter? And if these are for a cap n ball the chamber diameters?

If you are considering loading these in a cap n ball you'll likely have to create a small loading band on the base by resizing. I've read of a few people doing such.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Sorry. I always leave half the info out on these. Its for 45colt cartridges out of a 1873 pattern Single Action Army (Taylor & co.)

 

[Don McDowell]

Just get a proper lubed bullet, that is already lubed with a good bp cartridge lube, or cast some and lube them yourselves.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Lol yeah that's what I'm planning on doing but unless they're going to give them to me for free I'm not going to be able to do that for two weeks oh, but I do have 150 of the Hornady hell's that I would like to shoot with black powder if I can.
So the question remains am I going to be able to shoot them?

 

[Don McDowell]

Sure you can shoot them. That's not a problem. The problem comes with the lack of good lube the fouling will likely tie up your cylinder in a few rounds. You've already reported having leading problems in that gun, so just wait until you've seen the leading that will come from the crusty blackpowder fouling grabbing those soft bullets.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

I've already shot black powder lubed bullets that were 250 grain with no issues I put bore butter on the cylinder pin and it runs just fine that's why I'm thinking if I smear bore butter all over the knurling on the bullet it should be fine the leading problems came from running soft lead at a thousand feet per second. Only powder I had around with CFE at the time

 

[Don McDowell]

I don't think the leading problem came from running those lubed bullets at 1000 fps. That's never been a problem in my guns. Leading is usually caused from the bullets being to small, damaging the bases during loading because the case mouth wasn't flared enough, or to much crimp stripping the bullet when the gun goes off.
Smearing those bullets with bore butter won't prevent the leading caused by the blackpowder fouling stripping the lead from the bullets. Without a good lube blackpowder fouling tends to get rather hard and crusty, that in turn will strip lead from the bullet, even when shooting really hard bullets in heavy target rifles leading caused by not using good fouling control gets to be a problem.
Those Hornady bullets are likely to small for the throats and barrel of your gun, so you're off to a bad start to begin with, then add the complications of the bp fouling...

 

[Don McDowell]

Another question, did you clean those cases you used for the Pyrodex loads?

 

[whughett]

I'd go for it, with out trying to lube those bullets.. You Tuber "Cap and Ball" has a vid where he shoots cartridges without lubed bullets. Simply smear a bit of lube over the chamber mouths after loading. My conversion cylinder for my R&S likes hand cast 200 grain .452 SWC. I pan lube these bullets. Loaded over 30 grains of 3f, no wad, no filler they are capable of some pretty tight groups. I used Hornady swaged lead bullets for years before getting into hand casting. The knurling is a way of adding dry lube to the bullet. My guess the lube is graphite based.

My 40 years experience of shooting lead pistol bullets has proven that leadings primary cause is excessive velocity. There are other factors but speed is the culprit in most cases.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

I've done a little bit experimenting actually I put a few and vinegar a few and Windex and a few in Dawn dish soap and hot water they were extras that I had around. All three message seems to work okay the Windex bullets came out really clean, cleaners in the soap and water actually. I use a pair of pliers and crushed each one to see if the metal cracked and they all seemed malleable. I've been using two kinds of bullets 250 grain 12 BH bullets from Missouri Bullet Company and the Hornady bullets. So far the only problem I've had was when I loaded my first few with CFE. Since I've used Trail Boss haven't had any issues at all and the Pyrodex didn't do bad either. Although I only shot a few of those

 

[Joshboyfutre]

It will be a few days but I'm going to try a couple different things I think I will definitely report to you guys what I find out, if you see me if you see me on here asking about how to get rid of really severe leading you know it didn't work out LOL

 

[Don McDowell]

Bore butter is to soft and runny to work into those knurls on the Hornady bullet, you would be better off to roll those bullets in some bee's wax. The lube needs to be able to make the jump from the cylinder to the barrel and then out the muzzle, that requires a fairly stiff lube.
On the case cleaning, it takes a very long time for brass to corrode and weaken from the salts left behind by Pyrodex or black. The fouling however left inside the case mouth's will however not do anything to help with accuracy.
Oxyclean makes for a good case cleaning solution that removes bp fouling very well.Just be sure to rinse the cases with clear water after you wash them with what ever concoction you end up using.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

I know a guy is that is a chemist he's the real deal has a PHD in all that I'm going to get ahold of him and explain to him what happens with the black powder and all that and see what he thinks the best solution would be two get all that off without hurting the metal. I'll post what he tells me on here

 

[Don McDowell]

No particular need to contact a chemist, it's pretty simple deal, water dissolves salts, soap loosens the carbon. This stuff isn't rocket science, it's been common knowledge for a couple hundred years now..

 

[Joshboyfutre]

There are a lot of different methods I want to know what the best one is I know it's not rocket science and I know soap and water will work but I want to know for sure from someone that has been doing this for a very long time and went to school for it what the best thing for cleaning up is

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Apparently soap water vinegar mixture is the best thing for it. The vinegar is mildly acidic and will work in conjunction with the soapy water to make short work of it and have no worries of the brass going south afterward. Straight from a rocket scientist

 

[Don McDowell]

I shoot 1000's of rounds of blackpowder loaded cartridges every year. The vinegar isn't needed. Just a mild detergent of some sort, be it dishsoap, oxyclean, or similar is all that is needed.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

I'll keep that in mind man thank you. Just got done shooting a couple 250g rnfp w/ 30g black powder. I was pretty impressed with the accuracy! Same load of pyrodex had a crummy group. Thought it was supposed to be close to real bp as far as burn rate, pressure and all that

 

[Don McDowell]

The stuff the coat the Pyrodex with changes the burn characteristics, making it run more pressure than black when using Pyrodex at the same volume as black. Also makes it way more corrosive than black.
One thing to keep in mind when cleaning the cases using vinegar in the solution, the vinegar will make the cases get dark and discolored, so to keep them nice and shiny inside and out you'll maybe want to run them thru a vibrator cleaner with corn cob media.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Well I'm headed out to try shooting those hornaday bullets, I've got 12 loaded up with 30g black powder and 12 loaded up with 35. I'll post what happens on here if anybody's interested

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Headed home from the farm after shooting those Hornady bullets with a black powder they seem to shoot okay the cylinder rotated fine didn't bind up on me or anything and the accuracy seemed good with them it didn't seem to decline or anything. I'm headed home now to open it up swab the barrel and see what the deal is

 

[Joshboyfutre]

No leading at all. First pic is before any cleaning, second pic is after running windex w/vinegar thru and one patch!

 

[Joshboyfutre]

This is how I loaded them in case anyone wants to know, tho I'm not sure if any of the stuff made a bit of difference lol. I put bore butter on my cylinder pin, both parts of it got B.B. liberally. I also coated my barrel with it. Not sure If I can "season" this barrel as Im gonna be shooting smokeless as well. As for the bullet its self I put my charge in then put a card on top that I punched out of one of those yellow cabinet folders. Then I put a lubed (B.B.) wad on that, and last, my bullet. Didn't do anything to the bullet as far as lube. Hope this helps someone.

 

[whughett]

You can also float a layer of lube on an inch of water in a suitable pan, allow it to set, pour off the water and use a hollow punch to cut lube pills. Corn starch or baby powder will help prevent the lube from sticking to your punch or each other. I use these in lieu of wads occasionally and some use them in conjunction with wads.

There has been concern voiced here of the lube pills sticking to the base of the bullet if used in a cartridge case, I haven't experienced any problem there however.

Nice photo of the barrel bore. Leading is primarily a product of high velocity or gas blow by, neither of which is much of a concern in cap and ball revolvers. IMO