How crazy is California getting?

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purpplehaze

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The transcript seems to indicate that the 911 operator was concerned for safety of the officers who were approaching the area, which is understandable. Bullets flying out a window don't really care who they hit.

Note that even in CA:
Authorities say Donna Hopper did the right thing. They say by breaking in at 4:00 am, the suspect obviously knew she was probably home, and may have wanted to hurt her.

Good to know some folks out there have their thinking caps on!
 
No, I'm not shocked, considering where its coming from, and I also seem to remember the same response with another 911 call in another state, Texas comes to mind but not sure.

Remember the Officers are on their way, just sit tight, they'll get there.
 
I've heard of other incidents where this has occurred. I don't think its too surprising, as the 911 operator is trying to minimize loss-of-life, and I'm sure they would not be allowed to condone any act of violence. This could create a tricky legal situation where someone says, "The 911 operator told me to shoot if ______. So I did."

I'm sure that the 911 operator in this case was not surprised by the outcome.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
Who said this by the way?

- TNG
 
It has nothing to do with California since this same situation has played out before where a 911 dispatcher advises a caller to not use the weapon.
 
I wonder if the 911 operator would have felt bad if 'granny' wouldn't have shot and the intruder entered with a firearm or other weapon. Maybe the Texan is coming out in me but, if someone's using force to enter my domicile it's shoot first ask questions later.
 
I think that operators are trained to tell you not to shoot. It's probably due to some 1:1,000,000 case where somebody shot, hit the wrong person, claimed the police told them to due it, and got the department sued [citation needed]. Seeing as it happened in California, maybe they should have blamed my copy of Gears of War for inciting such violence.
 
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I wonder if the 911 operator would have felt bad if 'granny' wouldn't have shot and the intruder entered with a firearm or other weapon. Maybe the Texan is coming out in me but, if someone's using force to enter my domicile it's shoot first ask questions later.


Probably. But the 911 operator would probably also feel bad if granny missed and shot a cop or a neighbor.....or a cop shot her.

Lets not forget this part:
Authorities say Donna Hopper did the right thing. They say by breaking in at 4:00 am, the suspect obviously knew she was probably home, and may have wanted to hurt her.
 
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Authorities say Donna Hopper did the right thing. They say by breaking in at 4:00 am, the suspect obviously knew she was probably home, and may have wanted to hurt her.
CA Penal Code 198.5
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.
 
No more crazy than anywhere else, in this instance.

Typical 911 advice.

"Just wait, we'll be there in, ahhh...10, 20, 30 minutes or so. No, don't do anything to protect yourself...that is what the police are. We'll be there in ahhhh...10, 20, 30 minutes or so.
Hang tight, and put that gun down right now! Help is on the way. Can you hear the sirens? No? That's okay. Put that gun down!!!....help is on the way..."

Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
 
Granny was getting on in years, and a criminal is a terrible thing to waste. She should have listened to the operator. :D
 
My wife and I returned home from a walk in the dark last week at about 7:00 PM.
Two minutes later, a loud Knock-Knock-Knock at the front door.

Some people might simply choose to point a gun at the door (?), but a thin curtain obscures any visibility.

The two County Deputies who knocked were standing on the porch, as unknown to us, our quirky new security system had sent a signal during our walk. We thanked them for the visit.

During the walk with no cell phone, the distant staff who monitor the security alarms (many False signals) tried to reach us during our walk, and the house alarm was silent on our end of the signal.

If instead, it had been strangers with No uniforms, I would have grabbed the carbine and held it just out of their view. Our house is in a packed row, but a house which is isolated could be in an interesting, lonely situation.
 
The 911 op also tells the responding officers, so they know the homeowner is armed. Since they don't know the state of mind of the homeowner (they could be edgy and jittery in the trigger, or cool as ice, but the op has no way of knowing that) they tell the homeowner to keep the firearm down because the responding officers don't want a jitterbug getting spooked and testing the effectiveness of a ballistic vest... but yeah, the dispatcher will give the officer all the info they have.
 
The 911 operator can't give the perception of giving legal advice. Nor can she give a direction such as "use the gun to defend yourself"

She's just doing her job. Don't assume her political opinion or motivations!!!!
Not assuming anything at all, but to repeatedly inform 'Granny' not to defend herself could also be grounds for legal action if she were killed or injured by the intruder.

As a LEO I am well aware of someone just "doing their job".
 
No more crazy than anywhere else, in this instance.

Typical 911 advice.

"Just wait, we'll be there in, ahhh...10, 20, 30 minutes or so. No, don't do anything to protect yourself...that is what the police are. We'll be there in ahhhh...10, 20, 30 minutes or so.
Hang tight, and put that gun down right now! Help is on the way. Can you hear the sirens? No? That's okay. Put that gun down!!!....help is on the way..."

Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
Exatcly
 
Not assuming anything at all, but to repeatedly inform 'Granny' not to defend herself could also be grounds for legal action if she were killed or injured by the intruder.

As a LEO I am well aware of someone just "doing their job".

I agree. I don't think it's wrong to inform the person that they are allowed to use force if they perceive a threat to life or severe bodily injury. If that is the law then they are merely stating a fact. That is very different than telling the caller to shoot while not knowing the situation (which I agree with the other posters, that would be wrong).

The way I see it, it is still up to the caller to determine if their situation fits the criteria to use deadly force, just as in any other self defense situation.
 
My wife even liked that news article.

I think women in general feel helpless to defend themselves and when a woman does indeed successfully defend themselves, it's applauded. Reference the another thread topic... yes, guns are definitely for the weak!
 
I don't think it's wrong to inform the person that they are allowed to use force if they perceive a threat to life or severe bodily injury. If that is the law then they are merely stating a fact.
While you are right that the dispatcher might be stating a fact, (probably actually rendered as, "It shall be an affirmative defense to the charge of manslaughter ..."), this is some of the trickiest legal ground in existence.

As we so often say, a "good shoot" isn't a "good shoot" until the DA decides not to press charges, or a Grand Jury no-bills the case, or until a jury reviews the facts and decides that the totality of evidence indicates that the defendant's need to shoot met the standards to excuse the crime of manslaughter/murder (or ADW, if the attacker lived). There is no circumstance under which one citizen may kill another and have it be prima facie legal. So the dispatcher cannot determine that someone can lawfully shoot, and must be extremely careful not to encourage them to do so, assuming that the facts (which they are hearing one side of, over the telephone) will sustain the affirmative defense.

If the county or state policy supported such, and the dispatcher had a cheat sheet with a very specific bit of the appropriate text to read, I guess maybe they could advise the caller what things need to be true in order to prove justification. But that's complicated, and probably hard to explain to a terrified person facing an intruder over the phone.

AND, it is no guarantee. The caller could honestly meet all the requirements the dispatcher listed (ability, opportunity, jeopardy or words to that effect) and still have a jury convict them anyway. Now the dispatcher and/or their employer/agency (the state itself?) is party to the trial as having encouraged and influenced the defendant's actions.

I don't see this as a huge anti-self-defense conspiracy ("Oh, the cops will protect you, you don't need a gun, wink wink!") but rather a real shaky piece of legal ground the state and dispatchers would be foolish to mix themselves up in.

Honestly, if someone called ME, as a private citizen, and said, "There's a man who I think is about to attack me!" I'd want to be real careful telling that caller to shoot them. Killing someone else is a crime. If that crime happens to not be excused because a D/A, Grand Jury, and trial jury don't feel that the shooting was justified, I don't want to be found to have encouraged, directed, conspired(?) in that shooting. Doubtless 911 operators, who are far more likely to field multiple calls like that with some frequency, must be exceedingly careful not to encourage unlawful shootings. Remember the risks: You're either instructing a person to save their own life, or you're instructing them to commit the penultimate felony recognized by our legal system. And maybe both. Tread lightly!

Of course, encouraging people to die at the hands of attackers is even worse, but there should be some kind of middle ground between the two.
 
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Well, being from California, it's not hard to believe. But truthfully, I think the 911 operator, not to mention the responding officers didn't want her to shoot in order to reduce their paperwork load.

Don't laugh, twenty odd years ago I ended up holding a guy at gunpoint that had broken into my neighbors truck, and was breaking into mine. I had a cool little alarm that instead of making noise, paged me. At any rate, while the wife called the Sheriff, I went to stop the fellow. The deputies showed up, and in good humor suggested I not shoot, as it would "save alot of paperwork".

By the way, the deputies a much less hamstrung group than moste LEOs in this state. Had it been LAPD that had responded, they would likely have arrested me and sent the theif on his way.
 
well the one in tx was a different story the guy that did the shooting wasnt protecting HIS property and he chased one guy down the street i have no problem with protecting my home and family in what ever means possible but chaseing a guy down the street thats going alittle to far
 
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