Most times that I have been present for this(not too many) some one had a weapon confiscated and the police ask for proof of ownership. Serial numbers arn't good enough I have discovered. So how does one show proof of ownership. All but 2 of my current guns were given to me?
How do you prove ownership for guns given to you?
- Thread starter Eric F
- Start date
- Status
American_Pit_Bull
Member
My proof of ownership is possession. That's why you need to make sure that you get a receipt for any items taken from you or your residence. If the firearm hasn't been reported as stolen, that is all that you will need. (Although you may have to go to court and have a judge tell them so)
Records of your serial numbers and pictures are used to prove that you had possession.
Records of your serial numbers and pictures are used to prove that you had possession.
Hokkmike
Member
I don't understand this. I have never heard, except in New Orleans, of police taking guns without some good provocation. (threatening - brandishing behavior, etc)
I keep receipts for all my guns. I have papers or books for the ones given me. Not too many - you have generous friends or family. Unless in which case they are passed down and then my respects to your family.
@Hokkmike,
Come live in NJ.......
Say for example, you are on the way to or from the range with your pistols and you get pulled over by the local constabulary.
Unless you can prove said pistols are yours you're SOL. They can confiscate said evil tools of Satan and hold until you can prove you are the legal owner.
About the only proof that is acceptable is your copy of the original Permit to Purchase.
I have heard anecdotally that folks have been denied return for a looooooong time if the PtP has been in less than archival condition.
They then had to get their local PD, which is supposed to have one of the copies, and ask pretty please and have them provide a photocopy and letter.
As a general point, for those folks who have weapons, the easiest way to demonstrate ownership would be if they are noted on your household contents policy. Ask anyone who has ever had to deal with insurance companies before, they don't like paying out so they tend to be very tenacious about chasing down stuff for return.........
Come live in NJ.......
Say for example, you are on the way to or from the range with your pistols and you get pulled over by the local constabulary.
Unless you can prove said pistols are yours you're SOL. They can confiscate said evil tools of Satan and hold until you can prove you are the legal owner.
About the only proof that is acceptable is your copy of the original Permit to Purchase.
I have heard anecdotally that folks have been denied return for a looooooong time if the PtP has been in less than archival condition.
They then had to get their local PD, which is supposed to have one of the copies, and ask pretty please and have them provide a photocopy and letter.
As a general point, for those folks who have weapons, the easiest way to demonstrate ownership would be if they are noted on your household contents policy. Ask anyone who has ever had to deal with insurance companies before, they don't like paying out so they tend to be very tenacious about chasing down stuff for return.........
Nobody's_Hero
Member
Ugh. The state doesn't get it.
It isn't your job to prove you are innocent.
It is the state's job to prove you are guilty.
Not having a receipt doesn't make you guilty of anything more than keeping bad records, which, incidentally, isn't illegal (because if it were, we could rake the state over the coals and throw it in jail).
It isn't your job to prove you are innocent.
It is the state's job to prove you are guilty.
Not having a receipt doesn't make you guilty of anything more than keeping bad records, which, incidentally, isn't illegal (because if it were, we could rake the state over the coals and throw it in jail).
There are lots of places on a gun where a small piece of paper containing your name, address, D/L #, or whatever can be hidden.
If you have a s/n and can convince them to look under the buttplate, inside the pistol grip, under the grip, or between the receiver and the stock, you might have a chance.
Carving or burning your name on the inside of a stock or grip somewhere might be another way to do the same.
If you have a s/n and can convince them to look under the buttplate, inside the pistol grip, under the grip, or between the receiver and the stock, you might have a chance.
Carving or burning your name on the inside of a stock or grip somewhere might be another way to do the same.
When I bought a used 1911 a few months back, we drew up a bill of sale, very simple.
I, (seller) sell (firearm description) to (SomeKid) for $XXX.
We both signed it. Legal document? Hardly, but it isn't too bad. It works pretty good for a free state, as far as gifted guns go? Did not do anything at all. As NH noted, they are supposed to prove me guilty, which sadly they rarely do anymore. If the state chose to confiscate all my guns, the best way I could get back at them was file a theft report with the ATF, since some of my guns were bought under my C&R, and hope the ATF nailed them.
I, (seller) sell (firearm description) to (SomeKid) for $XXX.
We both signed it. Legal document? Hardly, but it isn't too bad. It works pretty good for a free state, as far as gifted guns go? Did not do anything at all. As NH noted, they are supposed to prove me guilty, which sadly they rarely do anymore. If the state chose to confiscate all my guns, the best way I could get back at them was file a theft report with the ATF, since some of my guns were bought under my C&R, and hope the ATF nailed them.
mortdooley
Member
I don't know where the idea that you need proof of ownership for firearms comes from. Maybe because some repressive areas of our nation require a card to be a gun owner. In Texas you don't need paper on your firearms even if some misinformed cop thinks you do, they are yours if you say so.
This is another product of the "anything goes" attitude toward law and property in this country.
It is turning jurisprudence on it's head. Proof of ownership of anything in your possession - personal property - is only in question if the inquiring person or agency has, or can show, that the specific item in your possession actually belongs to another party - or is the subject of a specific act of theft or other documented loss with a complaint filed by the alleged owner.
Otherwise, we could all walk around asking public officials for "proof of ownership" of their shoes, socks, the cash in their wallets etc etc.
In the absence of swift and decisive action by the judiciary - it is the legislature once again that has the responsibility to put a stop to this kind of thing once and for all.
-------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org
It is turning jurisprudence on it's head. Proof of ownership of anything in your possession - personal property - is only in question if the inquiring person or agency has, or can show, that the specific item in your possession actually belongs to another party - or is the subject of a specific act of theft or other documented loss with a complaint filed by the alleged owner.
Otherwise, we could all walk around asking public officials for "proof of ownership" of their shoes, socks, the cash in their wallets etc etc.
In the absence of swift and decisive action by the judiciary - it is the legislature once again that has the responsibility to put a stop to this kind of thing once and for all.
-------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Imho
Face-To-Face gifts need to be documented with a zero'ed balance
bill of sale, filed in your personal records~!
Face-To-Face gifts need to be documented with a zero'ed balance
bill of sale, filed in your personal records~!
308win
Member
It seems to me that a notarized statement documenting the gift and vesting title; with a statement by the donor to the effect of having legal title to make the gift should be sufficient. Yes, it may be over-kill, but there should be no doubt as to intent, right of ownership, or chain of ownership.
NavyLCDR
member
Two things:
First
If that piece of paper was signed and dated by the seller, it is a legal document and receipt, even if written on a napkin.
Second,
Could you make an inventory sheet listing all firearms by make, model and serial number to a notary and swear in front of them and have it notarized that you owned them?
First
If that piece of paper was signed and dated by the seller, it is a legal document and receipt, even if written on a napkin.
Second,
Could you make an inventory sheet listing all firearms by make, model and serial number to a notary and swear in front of them and have it notarized that you owned them?
LAK, supposedly if you have too much cash on you, it is OK to seize it until it is proven legit.
To those who are commenting about the bill of sale we wrote up: Since it is not notarized or witnessed, does it count? We actually did all of the above, both signed, and dated. Perhaps it is more legal than I thought.
I saw this for myself twice where a gun was taken by the police for what ever reason, I was trying to get some stolen itmes back from the police "impound" a bicycle and a lawnmower, the guy infront of me was told he could not have a gun back until he could prove ownership.
Also when I worked for a police department as a wrecker driver I stood there and watched as a guy that had his car impounded argue for about an hour with the desk sgt. because he could not prove ownership that he owned the gun in question. He had a serial number but that was it. just as a note if we impounded a car we did an inventory of the car. It was SOP if we found a gun it got locked up in the evidence locker until the owner could sign for it.
Any way my whole point of this thread is that I now own all of my dads and grandfathers guns they were all given to me there is no receipt or bill of sale. and if I had to prove owner ship no matter what the circumstances are. so far I am guessing pictures and serial numbers might be good enough.
NavyLCDR
member
Let's say you go to Joe's Gun Shop and he sells you a gun. More than likely, if he is just a small shop, he is only going to have a receipt pad with maybe his name and address printed at the top. He is likely to give you a receipt that probably isn't even signed. Or you go to Walmart and buy a VCR. You get a cash register receipt for the item that doesn't even have your name on it, that is legal.
So, yes, the hand written bill of sale, not witnessed, not notarized, is completely legal. The only way it would come into question in court is if one of the parties who signed the bill of sale contested the document saying that was not their signature.
The same is true for promise to pays. Let's say you agree to buy the gun from Joe Smoe from the newspaper. He says I will give you the gun and you can pay me on payday or return the gun if you don't like it. You sign a piece of paper with that written on it. Joe can now take you to court for violation of that agreement if you don't pay him or return the gun.
I photograph each firearm with a detail of the serial number as my inventory. I do this this for insurance purposes, but should be able to use it for identification purposes for other reasons as well.
That said, a clerk that has been given the lowest common denominator instruction will probably not be able to make any decision beyond verification of bill of sale identifying the weapon so you should immediately tell them you understand they have their instructions on how to deal with this and would they please get a supervisor who has a deeper understanding of the requirements. Repeat until you reach someone with the authority to make a decision.
That said, a clerk that has been given the lowest common denominator instruction will probably not be able to make any decision beyond verification of bill of sale identifying the weapon so you should immediately tell them you understand they have their instructions on how to deal with this and would they please get a supervisor who has a deeper understanding of the requirements. Repeat until you reach someone with the authority to make a decision.
Spyvie
Member
Maybe there is a use for the "post pictures of your guns" threads that are so common around here. It should be easy enough to prove that you're the owner of your THR account. That along with a list of serial numbers postmarked or emailed prior to the claim would seem like proof of ownership to me.
A list on paper with photos, SNs and a notary's sig would certainly do it as well.
Seems like a good reason to maintain a Photobucket.com account, maybe even a paid one.
A list on paper with photos, SNs and a notary's sig would certainly do it as well.
Seems like a good reason to maintain a Photobucket.com account, maybe even a paid one.
It is frightening to realize how far we've gotten from the Rule of Law in this country.
Perhaps it's even more frightening that the majority of the public not only don't realize that; they don't even care.
Check out this thread. It is VERY relevant to this discussion:
Kansas Gun Confiscations
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4356362#post4356362
Perhaps it's even more frightening that the majority of the public not only don't realize that; they don't even care.
Check out this thread. It is VERY relevant to this discussion:
Kansas Gun Confiscations
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4356362#post4356362
Last edited:
xjchief
Member
I hate to get technical but registration is not proof of ownership. Your car may be registered to you but a leasing or finance company may the the actual owner or co-owner. Only a title or a bill of sale is actual proof of ownership.
Of course, possession is also 9/10's of the law.
Of course, possession is also 9/10's of the law.
Kind of Blued
Member
Man, what happened to America... I miss 'er.
I miss 'er.SomeKid
Yes, under so-called civil forfeiture laws, many people have been parted with both cash and property. This is a form of robbery as far as I am concerned, but it will continue unless it is stopped by the legislature - which is for the time being unlikely to happen.
NavyLT is fully correct as far as I know; you can write up a bill of sale for anything on a piecee of paper, a napkin, even a piece of cardboard and it is a legal document as long as it has your full name, the item(s) sold adequately described, the date and the full name of the seller with both signatures. it is always wise to make copies, have them notarized, and never hand over both the original and copy at the same time.
Yes, under so-called civil forfeiture laws, many people have been parted with both cash and property. This is a form of robbery as far as I am concerned, but it will continue unless it is stopped by the legislature - which is for the time being unlikely to happen.
I think if your property (any property) was seized absent court order, search warrant, or probable cause that it was stolen property, evidence of a crime, or proceeds from a crime then the burden of proof is on the seizing entity to prove their case. I think any action to the contrary would be the basis for litigation. Yes that is wrong, expensive, and a pain in the neck.
How about this. Prepare a word document titled "Affidavit of ownership" displaying a photo and the details of the property thereon. Print it out. Get it signed/dated/notarized. Put it in an envelope, addressed to yourself. Take it to the post office and have it manually date stamped and mailed to yourself. When it gets home, store it unopened.
This is a variation on the 'poor man's copyright' that I have read of elsewhere. You could prepare one for each piece of property in question. If the issue ever arises, you have the notarized/dated affidavit in addition to the postmark as proof.
I am not an attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently.
How about this. Prepare a word document titled "Affidavit of ownership" displaying a photo and the details of the property thereon. Print it out. Get it signed/dated/notarized. Put it in an envelope, addressed to yourself. Take it to the post office and have it manually date stamped and mailed to yourself. When it gets home, store it unopened.
This is a variation on the 'poor man's copyright' that I have read of elsewhere. You could prepare one for each piece of property in question. If the issue ever arises, you have the notarized/dated affidavit in addition to the postmark as proof.
I am not an attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently.
- Status