How dumb is it to only carry OC in Denali National Park?

[TargetTerror]

I didn't want to hi-jack this thread, but it raised a question in my mind so I'll post it here. I went on one of those outdoorsy teen trips up in Alaska back in high school. One segment was a week-long backpack through Denali National Park. The organization running it was smart enough to realize that, yes, there are bears in Alaska, and they might attack us. They also were smart enough to know that if they let the counselor take a gun along, the parents of kids going on the trip would be like and they'd probably never run a trip again - anywhere. So, the group took along 3 or so canisters of pepper spray.

Looking back, that seems very foolhardy, to say the least. But, I've also heard that with a group of people of that size (10-15) hiking and making noise (we hung bells from our backpacks), we would most likely scare off any bear that happened to be near us. So my question is, just how dangerous was it for a group of our size to hike through Denali armed only with pepper spray? This was a fairly well-used trail, so it seems different from being up in the middle of nowhere Alaska.

 

[RTFM]

National Park

Do some research on National Parks and firearms.

 

[buzz_knox]

When I took a brief hike through Denali, I left my sidearm in the rental car in order to comply with federal law. I regretted it after I went off the trail and started running into fresh bear droppings.

 

[akodo]

I think a person cutting through a back alley in detroit is in more risk and in more need of a gun than a group of kids in denali

 

[RKBABob]

When I took a brief hike through Denali, I left my sidearm in the rental car in order to comply with federal law. I regretted it after I went off the trail and started running into fresh bear droppings.

Did any of those droppings have bells in them and smell like peppers?

 

[RoadkingLarry]

I vaguely remember a joke about hikers dealing with bells in piles of bear droppings...

 

[CWL]

When you say "pepperspray" are you meaning human-deterrent small cans, or are you talking about the Bear-deterrent cans the size of small fire extinguishers?

 

[RKBABob]

Hmmm.. Now that you mention it, RoadKing...
Maybe that wasn't an original thought that just popped into my head.

 

[Havegunjoe]

If pepper spray is all you are allowed by law your choice becomes go or not go. I prefer having a firearm of sufficient caliber when in bear country. It would be my luck to come across the only bear that likes pepper on his food and is attracted to bells.

 

[TargetTerror]

Do some research on National Parks and firearms.

I completely forgot about that aspect of carrying a firearm. Silly me, I've only read it on this board 100 times

I'm more interested in just how safe or unsafe we were in that area of Alaska, armed with what we had.

 

[Mainsail]

Some clarity from their website:

18. Can I bring a gun?
In the original national park (now on map as wilderness), you may not have a firearm. In the portions of the new park and preserve (designated in 1980) you may carry a firearm.

 

[Cosmoline]

Denali is occupied enemy territory. NPS are true jackboots. They ignore our game laws, habituate bears and other wildlife for the pleasure of tourists and turn wild areas into rutting theme parks complete with bus tours. They're OK running some museum, but they have no business controlling large areas of wild territory. The jerks even made a huge stink to prevent locals from daring to cross park territory on snowmachines to get from one village to the next during winter!

Of course, since they're federal it's not like I can actually *do* anything about it. They may as well be the Imperial Japanese Army.

 

[Tokugawa]

Nobody ever blinked at my 12 gauge in the ANWR. Or in Glacier Park either although I was on the outside (Lituya Bay) away from everybody. And the Glacier time was a long time ago.
I am not sure what authority administers the ANWR, it may not be the NPS.

 

[nicademus]

how can you tell black bear poop from Grizzly bear poop?

Bells.... when hiking in bear counrty you put bells on you walking stick to alert the bears and hopfully keep them away. does not always work

 

[bpisler]

Just don't be the slow one and you
will be alright.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think a person cutting through a back alley in detroit is in more risk and in more need of a gun than a group of kids in denali

Statistically, this is correct. Also statistically correct is that if you are attacked in a back alley in Detroit, you are much less likely to require medical treatment or the morgue although you are more likely to be attacked. Also statistically correct is that EMS response time in Detroit, while not very good, is still likely several hours (or days) faster than in Denali.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

I'm more interested in just how safe or unsafe we were in that area of Alaska, armed with what we had.

As long as you can run faster than someone else in your group (not the bear), you are safe.

 

[LaEscopeta]

And speaking of statistics, every time you get in a car there is a chance some nut will run into you and kill you. You can reduce this chance by staying alert but you cannot eliminate the risk completely. We accept the risk is small and live with it; everyone dies eventually.

Statistically, the rate of deaths/injuries caused by bears in Denali National Park is much less than the death/injury rate due car accidents. And this is taking into account the time lag for emergency care in Denali. In the 90 year history of the Park, there have been 23 cases of bear-induced human injury and zero repeat zero fatalities (sources below.) This is with >340,000 visitors per year (unknown how many are in bear country.)

Yes bears will occasionally hunt people for food, and are perfectly capable of stalking and pouncing with basically no warning. More often bears will charge/attack humans to defend their territory or cubs. But the vast majority of the time bears will keep their distances from humans. And in most bear attacks, how injured or dead the human ends up seems to be decided by the bear, not by what the human is carrying or does. If the bear wants to knock you down and roll you around a few times before wandering off, it does. If it wants to eat you and your girl friend while your tape recorder is running so you can be the subject of a documentary film, it does. There have been cases where OC or a firearm has saved a person, but there have also been cases where people had these and they couldn’t employ them or they didn’t work.
News story index on bear attacks: http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/bears/attacks/

Back to the original question of this post, “How dumb is it to only carry OC in Denali National Park?” If “dumb” means “risking injury or death”, it is less dumb then driving in a car.

Around 340,000 visitors to the park per year:
http://www.nps.gov/dena/parkmgmt/upload/North Access Feasibility Study.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/1999/November/Day-12/i29338.htm

News story index on bear attacks:
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/bears/attacks/

In the 23 cases of bear-induced human injury:
http://www.nps.gov/dena/frequently-asked-questions-regarding-bears.htm

>500,000 visitors-days-of-use per year in Grizzly areas:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=00....0.CO;2-I&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

There has never been a fatal bear mauling in the park's history but there have been occasional attacks, some of them serious, said Park Service spokeswoman Jane Ahern.
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?id=2072805

 

[Mr White]

Yes, its illegal to carry in a national park, but, alive and in a world of ***** still beats the hell out of dead.

Not saying that packing in the gift shop would be a wise thing to do, but if I'm gonna be in the back country with bears, wolves, or even rabid marmots, I'd want something a little more substantial than seasoning and bells. Didn't pavlo us bells to condition his dogs that it was time to eat?

 

[Cosmoline]

I am not sure what authority administers the ANWR, it may not be the NPS.

It is not. ANWR, as the name suggest is a wildlife refuge and is run by the good folks at the US Fish & Wildlife Service. They allow firearms. They allow hunting to some extent via a permiting system, but are not as broad as BLM or USFS. Though ANWR has been in the news, that's over mineral rights.

Statistically, the rate of deaths/injuries caused by bears in Denali National Park is much less than the death/injury rate due car accidents. And this is taking into account the time lag for emergency care in Denali. In the 90 year history of the Park, there have been 23 cases of bear-induced human injury and zero repeat zero fatalities (sources below.) This is with >340,000 visitors per year (unknown how many are in bear country.)

That's because they've all but tamed the bears there and herd people through on buses. It's not real Alaska, its a vile THEME PARK on par with the worst tourist traps in downtown Juneau. If you're one of the few given special permission to actually walk around in the park's backcountry, your chance of a bear encounter are rather higher. Though as you note driving up the Parks Highway is going to be statistically more dangerous. But then again the Parks Highway is a two lane ribbon of death in many places, so that's not much of an endorsement for barging around without a firearm.

If you want to experience real Alaska, you don't need to go to Denali. Just park your car on the Seward Highway and start walking towards the mountains--any mountains. You can't miss them. You will have high adventure, and no park guide needed. Though you're less likely to have photo ops of a sow with cubs.

 

[SageMonkey]

I thought it was agreed upon by experts years ago that "bear bells" were completely ineffective, since bears believed they were hearing birds rather than new and foreign sounds.

The bears I've had to run off, did leave, eventually,after much yelling, pot-banging, etc. These were all black bears. In one case a 7.62x39 did not scare one away, but enough yelling by several people eventually did the trick. That one didn't even flinch at the shot only a couple feet over its head.

 

[Lashlarue]

Some of the smarter bears consider the bells, dinner bells!

 

[MT GUNNY]

The book'Bear Attacks' cant remember auth. The guy did exstensive studies
and came to the conclusion that any amount of people in a group larger than 4 or 5 was considerably less likely to encounter a bear attack.

 

[magmeister]

I would carry a firearm regardless of the laws.
When I went to the Grand Canyon National park I carried concealed.
After sorting through the papers they give you when you enter the park, a large notice warning of the dangers of mountain lions in the area made me glad I ''missed' no guns allowed sign!
The notice warned that if I was approached by a hungry, dangerous lion, I was to place my backpack over my head and appear loud and threatening to scare the lion away!
Your responsible for your own safety and I would 100% reccomend you take a gun with you regardless of the law. Just because it is a law does not make it right, just be prepared to acccept the consequences if you get caught. But you will still be alive.

 

[BruceB]

Jeff Cooper had it correctly:

'THE LAW OF AVERAGES (i.e.: "statistics"-BB) IS FAINT COMFORT IF *YOU* ARE THE EXCEPTION.'

I've met enough bears in the wild to resolve to NEVER be unarmed in their environment.