How important is a knife?

[BHP FAN]

a knife is important because it's really hard to skin a critter with a fire ax.

 

[Smith]

It can't hurt, right?

I have little to no knife combat training, but I'm sure I can do a lot more damage with 4 inches of sharpened steel then I can with my fist. Ex: Rapidly propelling my fist into the chest of an attacker = Pain and maybe a momentary stunning effect. Rapidly propelling my fist *while holding a knife* into the chest of an attacker = Pain, large hole, punctured organ and/or blood vessel, significant blood loss, possible difficulty breathing, possible fear/panic, etc.

That said, I never leave home without my Spyderco Endura 4 w/ Wave Feature. I highly doubt I'll ever use it for anything besides utility (which it handles very well), but if a situation arose I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[HeatPackingHipster]

First of all let me say this is my first time posting, but I've been reading you guys for years now. You guy even helped me pick out my first non-issued heater when I just got out of the Marine Corps.

I want to start by stating that I always carry 2 knives, a 3.5" Tanto tactical folder clipped to my front right pocket, and one in a "credit card multitool" in my wallet. I think every person should have a knife on them for various non-combat purposes at least. I also want to state that I hold a purple belt in BJJ, am a brown belt instructor in MCMAP, and have been involved in some form of H2H since I was 6(I am 23 now). I also live in an area where I may not be able to carry my gun 15mins from my house(I live in NOVA, I am referring to DC or the MD suburbs) so this is a question I have pondered many a times.

First off I would like to offer my respect to Strambo as far as his H2H knowledge. Krav Maga right? He makes very many good points regarding using a knife as a weapon that I agree with, but as far as this thread goes I have to admit to agreeing more with Zoogster. While a tactical folder would prove to be a useful weapon should the need arise, an should always IMO be carried for the numerous and potentially life saving applications it can be used for, I would opt for OC first and here is why.

1. Though a knife can go places a gun cannot, OC can go some places knives cant. See college campus, I'm a student now (I effin love the new GI bill...and parenthesis) so that's a big deal.

2. While I am sure people will speak to the ineffectiveness of OC, the truth is most people who are going to be able to fight through OC and hurt you will probably be able to fight through knife wounds or even a few 9mm's and hurt you(druggies). People generally aren't stopped immediately by the actual physical damage caused from being stabbed, shot(at least by a small round), or cut. But, rather by the psychological effects of such. i.e. if they get shot/shanked/shived they go "OMG I just got X, kthxbye" and shut down. If they can for whatever reason fight through OC and get you, they can probably fight through a blade and get you though they may die from their wounds at a later date(which is somewhat comforting I guess, at least you took them with). There do exist a lucky very few people who are totally resistant to OC, and most of the time non intoxicated people can continue to fight on OC if determined, but if they can fight after being OCed they probably aren’t doing so very well at all. They almost become sitting ducks, despite any increase in raging strength they may get, it is far outweighed in your favor by them being blind and unable to breathe. Therefore I don't think you'll find a whole lot of added benefit from a knife to OC.

3. Dogs. Most people probably have a greater chance of being attacked by a pissed off dog than a human. I dont know about you, but I dont want to scuffle with Rabid Fido(who happens to be a pit-bull in this scenario) knife or not. Dogs can cause some serious damage or even kill you, I can tell you from personal experience that OC works wonders on them.

4. A less lethal option. Using a knife can have some serious legal repercussions, even if you were defending yourself. No matter how you use a knife, whether you are stabbing or just cutting at his arms you ARE using lethal force. Furthermore not every situation will warrant lethal force, not every attacker will attack with a weapon, so carrying OC is good even when you carry a gackt. Let me give you an example this past summer I was pulling out of a parking lot in a mall and due to my own dumbass mistake accidentally hit another persons truck leaving a dent. He got out of his truck and said he was going to kick my ass, I apologized, he repeated he was going to kick my ass and moved towards me, I OC sprayed him, backed up, and he dropped heaving in about a second and a half. He was probably about 1-3" taller than me and 50lbs heavier at most(I am 6' and 160 not a big guy) but I probably knew how to fight better, and was probably stronger, faster, and in better shape(I still workout vigorously, he looked chubby). I probably could have messed him up without a weapon, but I didn't want to take that chance, people have been killed in fist fights. I was in VA so I had both my gun, and knife accessible. But had I pulled either, even if just to scare him, I would have been in the wrong, at least legally. Remember, even an unarmed person can be very dangerous, and don't assume that because you're big and strong, or even a ninja that the scrawny dude in the next booth can't hand your @$$ to you very quickly. Its best not to take any chances in self defense, to reiterate, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED OR SERIOUSLY, PERMANENTLY INJURED IN FIST FIGHTS. That last part doesn't mean you can pull a lethal weapon on them though, funny how our laws work that way.

5. Nothing says you cant carry both, I carry my folder as a tool. But, if for whatever reason I need to use it to defend myself you bet I will without blinking. Best part is I can carry everything in Straight leg fitted jeans you wouldn't know. I carry my pepper spray in a ASP palm defender (a bonus is that with proper training in such this doubles as an impact/grappling kubotan weapon. I'm not a sales person, I promise) attached to a keyring, attached to a belt loop, tucked in my right pocket. I also carry my Iphone in that pocket, my Iphones headphones in the "5th" pocket above that as well as my folder clipped to the far right. With the exception of the knifes pocket clip it looks no different than when its empty, and everything’s light enough I dont feel it. As a side note in addition to that I also carry 2 packs of gum and a bic in my left pocket, and keys with a Fenix E01 Led beltlooped tucked in the same manner in the left pocket. A can of dip in my back left pocket, a multi tool AND a condom in my wallet, and a Glock 36 IWB. I can carry all this without even feeling slightly weighed down, and still being "fashionable" enough to go hit on the stupid liberal DC hipster-esque girls(hence the joke in my s/n). To summarize my pants look no different from anyone else’s, nor does it feel like I just robbed batman’s utility belt, but I have all the capabilities of if I did.

6. Legal Repercussions. This has been pretty well covered. But, most of the time, in most places, using a knife is going to be more problematic, legally speaking, than using OC.

I am not saying you shouldn't carry a tac folder, I actually think its very important to carry. Self defense is synonymous with self preservation and it would be stupid to be able to be able to outgun a mugger but not to cut yourself out of a seatbelt trapping you in a burning car that’s self defense too(in fact my tac folder comes with a seatbelt cutter and window punch built in). Keeping yourself out of prison could also be considered self preservation. I am not even saying that there wont be situations that warrant using a folder in SD, and you should seek out training to know how to use yours if the need arises. but coming from a weapon standpoint, I believe there are better things out there to carry as additions to your folder for use as a weapon IMO. Just trying to give another perspective. Sorry for writing so much.

 

[Erik]

"When you can't carry a gun another tool in the tool box is a pretty smart idea. Guns, sticks, knives, etc. can also support one another in solving the SD problem."

True, to include when you CAN carry a gun.

 

[mljdeckard]

I am reminded yet again why I am glad I can carry to school here.

 

[strambo]

I am reminded yet again why I am glad I can carry to school here.

That's great. Just keep in mind, at close quarters, the firearm suffers most of the same limitations applied to the knife in this thread. #1. have to deploy it. #2, instant stop unlikely, even a heart shot will allow 7-30 seconds of conscious voluntary control.

zoogster's story about the knife slash to the neck (cartoid) and the slashee beating the slash-er to a pulp, then passing out...would have had the same outcome w/ a bullet to the same target. You survive by injuring them...and then injuring them some more until they aren't a threat. Not by getting one or two injuries in (even if horrific-eventually fatal) then assuming it's over. Keep going...until they can't (define "can't" in your own way based on the situation, curled up fetal and crying may do).

The only sure thing (immediate stop) with any tool (or no tool) is to injure the CNS. A knockout punch is an injury to the CNS (brain), a brick to the head, same, a bullet to head/spine, same, an edged weapon to base of skull (under), eye (into brain) behind ear etc., all instant results provided they injure the CNS.

Anything else with any tool (or no tool) will have varied results based on what is broken and where.

 

[30mag]

Anything else with any tool (or no tool) will have varied results based on what is broken and where.

Affirmative.

 

[30mag]

I have seen it happen, someone stabbed multiple time in the neck, including severing a carotid artery. The large stabbed individual proceeded to beat the crap out of the punk that did it, and then passed out about 20 seconds later. Others got involved. With blood showering the area. The attacked individual got prompt medical attention and a blood transfusion and were back to normal within a couple days with just some scars and stitches.

So, what you're saying is that he stopped the fight?

The amount of blood showering out under pressure at face level certainly means any disease that person had was shared with his attacker.

It also means he didn't die, which is the point.

I also knew someone knocked out and put into a coma from a hit to the head with something as mundane as a full beer bottle.

n=1
Are you suggesting carrying around beers as an alternative to a knife, or just hanging around bars due to the readily availability of deadly weapons?

Stabbing offensively is much easier than defensively. The offensive attacker knows they need to use their weapon before they are engaged in a fight and can deploy it accordingly.

Whatever that means. I imagine shooting defensively is also not as easy as shooting offensively, but in the same way most people aren't in situations where they draw after they're already shot, people don't have spontaneous knife fights.

If they are using a weapon they will have similar or greater reach. If they don't care about the law they are likely to have a bigger and better weapon whether a large knife, blunt weapon, or a gun.

So, we should disarm ourselves and admit defeat before the fight even begins?

If they are not armed, then you are using lethal force to face a simple battery. Which in most circumstances is itself a crime, and you are at least likely to be considered a mutual combatant and face criminal charges for any serious damage.
Mutual combatants don't get to claim self defense.

If you are attacked, I'm pretty sure you 'get' to claim self-defense.

A fixed blade is much easier, but also illegal in much of the nation.
Then after all that movement to retrieve that weapon with one hand, leaving you less able to counter attacks being delivered, you are left with a weapon with only moderate potential.

Illegal in much of the nation? There's nothing in the CALIFORNIA code that prohibits the carry of fixed blade knives, particularly openly.

So under most circumstances where using that weapon is legal for you, the other individual will be armed, or there is more than one person attacking you.
A small folder is a really bad weapon in those circumstances.

I would say that a poor weapon is better than no weapon.

It has poor reach, is hard to deploy while grappling, and does minimal damage compared to most weapons you can be attacked with.

I don't know what minimal damage means exactly.. but I disagree.

If you have any opportunity to leave or back down and choose not to, then you are very likely to be considered a mutual combatant, and self defense is not an allowed defense.

In any case, not just where small folding knives are present.

An actual fight between grown men who know how to fight or lived some street tough lives when the stakes are lethal is quite different from a schoolyard brawl between teenagers. Anything and everything which can be a weapon suddenly is a weapon. There is a lot more power behind even the same attacks, and most solid hits do significant damage.
If it's not bolted down, it gets thrown, or picked up and smashed into an opponent.

I dare say that such a fight is rare outside of the movies.

And that is if they didn't bring a weapon, a likely much better weapon not in compliance with the law.

Just because someone might have a better weapon than you, I still say that there is no reason to not try and level the playing field a little bit.

If on the other hand you are using legal self defense, it will only be deployed when facing another weapon or multiple attackers.

What does this mean?

Where I come from the type of people who are multiple attackers would then pull out weapons they are carrying themselves and some not armed may back up and grab things in the room or off the ground. Whether it is a piece of furniture with greater reach, or some bricks or large rocks on the street. Or random debris, like a bottle, pipe, or some discarded automobile component.
If it is a lone individual they already have their weapon out to justify your use of lethal force.

It doesn't sound very hard to justify the use of lethal force (which apparently even tiny knives are classified as) in your neck of the woods. I'm surprised you're still alive after all the fights you must have witnessed.

 

[SWDoc]

For those who would like a little more info on the time required for an exsanguinating kinfe wound to effect the fight: http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Knife-Targeting-Fairbairns-Timetable/dp/1581605560 .

The book also has some info on targeting cuts to biomechanically significant anatomic features. Which is a fancy way of saying you get an immediate disabling wound to a limb, with a very quick mobility or functionality kill. My understanding is that while stab wounds to the torso or abdomen can certainly be lethal, they are not sufficiently quick to end the fight right that instant in most cases.

As has been stated, the real key is training and practice. Several good instructors are out there. I believe SouthNarc is teaching a course in Texas this weekend, and I have been in Mike Janich's defensive folders class. He is very good. Just having the blade does not make it particularly useful, as several posters have pointed out previously. There appears to be a lot of misinformation out there regarding defensive use of knives, especially in terms of "stopping power" and targeting.

The more I train and learn with them, the more questions pop up. Blade configuration? Strong side vs. support side carry (think retention struggle involving your pistol)? Everything seems to evolve as I learn more empty hand stuff. The dynamic changes.

I personally carry a Blackhawk Crucible (or Ken Onion Leek if I need something smaller/lighter). Support side when I am carrying (almost always) or strong side if I do not have a pistol.

To the OP; they CAN be very important, if you know how to use them.

Steve

 

[Knockdownpower]

A knife is always good to have weather you have a firearm on you or not. I'm also the kind that packs two knives. My unility knife is an old Buck model 501 that i've had for many years. It and my zippo ride in my left hip pocket, and my defence blade cliped to the right. It is either a Kershaw Boa, Spyderco police model, or a CRKT M16 series. My advice is don't use the knife if you can shoot the threat, and don't go hand to hand if you can stab and cut. And do get some kind of formal instruction on how to use any weapon most efectively.