how important is a sixth shot?
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inSight-NEO
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I dont know... How good is your aim? How well do you perform under extreme pressure?
Regardless, if we are talking HD situations here, a 6th shot probably wouldn't amount to much if the first 5 hit nothing.
BTW- Is this going to be for conceal/carry? If so, I can understand choosing a snubbie. Of course, with this I would be more concerned about weapon control vs ammo capacity. However, if this is mainly for HD use and not CC, Id recommend you look at the GP100 series in the 4" barrel configuration. This would give you greater capacity (just in case, although not really necessary), better control (particularly if using "full house" .357 Magnum loads or .38 Special +P loads), and still allow you to have a relatively short barrel.
Regardless, if we are talking HD situations here, a 6th shot probably wouldn't amount to much if the first 5 hit nothing.
BTW- Is this going to be for conceal/carry? If so, I can understand choosing a snubbie. Of course, with this I would be more concerned about weapon control vs ammo capacity. However, if this is mainly for HD use and not CC, Id recommend you look at the GP100 series in the 4" barrel configuration. This would give you greater capacity (just in case, although not really necessary), better control (particularly if using "full house" .357 Magnum loads or .38 Special +P loads), and still allow you to have a relatively short barrel.
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SharpsDressedMan
member
Five or six. Doesn't matter. Start by loading one round, and practice. Do NOT load two rounds until you hit everything, EVERY time, with one round. Then you'll be ready to try the same with 2, or 3, etc.
Only because there is more data. The stats for private citizens will show even less need to reload.
Cops have left the revolver because there is a desire to militarize among police agencies. They thought they were "outgunned" by drug dealers with their hi cap wondernines. In fact they were under trained. Handing them a Glock with multiple mags is not substitute for training. This is why you read about cops firing 127 shots at the suspect and hitting him 7 or 8 times.
It wasn't much of a savings though, when you factor in lost court cases for excessive force and the like.
If you expect to miss a lot then you really need 15 rounds plus reloads. I don't expect to miss. Heck, I don't expect to need it much at all, just like my spare tire.
I am a real betting man. And I bet you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.
GJgo
Member
(In case someone hasn't already said it, didn't read all 5 pages!)
One nice thing about the SP101 is that even if you're out of rounds, you can still use the thing as a weapon or a tool- it's a solid peice of steel. You can't say that about an empty Glock..
One nice thing about the SP101 is that even if you're out of rounds, you can still use the thing as a weapon or a tool- it's a solid peice of steel. You can't say that about an empty Glock..
Just a few rambling thoughts, from a guy who has been wearing a big-city police badge 25 years this week, and paying attention:
I took a robbery report recently, from a teenager who was set upon by FIVE bad guys, two from one direction, armed with at least a shotgun, and three from another direction, armed with at least one 9mm handgun. The two groups appeared to be coordinating their robbery with mobile phones, and it may have been a gang initiation robbery. The complainant dodged, ducked, and ran, then dodged, ducked, ran again, and went over two fences to get away. It seems the bad guys wanted his I-pod. Until shortly before this incident, I had walked our dogs in that very area, and still sometimes stop at a small convenience store there. I still have relatives that live in that neighborhood, which is a "nice" neighborhood. I sometimes walk their dogs for them in that area. While the complainant got by without a firearm, he was also much quicker and agile than me, plus very lucky. There was no indication my complainant was a gang member; he was just trying to walk home from his after-school job.
A couple of weeks after this robbery attempt, two blocks away, a couple was robbed by two gun-toting white guys. While no shots were fired, how do y'all think the male complainant would have felt if the bad guys would have wanted to take his girlfriend/wife with them for post-robbery entertainment?
After finishing a long night shift in the 1980's, I got home and pulled my S&W M58 from the duty rig, and heard metal rattling in a way that should not be. I removed the grip screw, pulled the grip panels apart, and out fell the mainspring, in two pieces. I had gotten in a hurry the evening before, and neglected to strap my backup J onto my ankle. And, no, before anyone mentions it, my M58's mainspring was stock; it had not been "shaved" or otherwise altered. I have been somewhat religious about backup weapons since then, even if that backup was just a very stout blade, at times.
The second scenario above brings up the factor of being responsible for the safety of others. Being alone, with just the desire to break contact, differs greatly from being with folks who are slower, weaker, or otherwise unable to see to their own defense. Five rounds is probably plenty for breaking off an attack, if you have room to maneuver. If I have to move to rescue someone, I want far more than five rounds. This is a decision every armed person has to make for himself, and still be able to look at himself in the mirror after an incident.
From about 2002 to 2007, my most-carried handgun was a Ruger SP101 snubby, loaded with hot .357 ammo. My second-most-carried handgun was a second SP101, similarly loaded. 2002 is the year I had to give up 1911 pistols for duty/carry, and started using a G22 for duty. I generally carried TWO SP101 snubbies when out of uniform; sometimes even a third revolver, SP101 or Speed Six. In 2007, I finally settled on a couple of good concealment holsters for my P229 duty pistols, and a SP101 gradually ceased being a permanent attachment to my body, and became a selectively-carried back-up by 2008.
For about a year now, I have usually carried two P229 pistols with me at all times. It is not because I think five shots is not enough, but because I think two handguns may not be enough. THAT should probably be discussed in a new thread, rather than causing this one to drift. Google FBI, Platt, Florida, Hanlon, Dove, Mireles. That incident was a microcosm of what can happen when things go really bad.
For what it is worth, I have fired one shot in the line of duty, which hit one bad guy in the important bits, and it was enough. One shot, not to the COM in general, but to the heart and left lung, in particular. If I had just hit a lung, I might well have needed more. Had it been a slower-moving bullet, I might well have needed more. Or, perhaps a .32 ACP on the same place would have worked. (I used a Federal 125-grain full-power .357 mag JHP.)
I remember the previously-mentioned Neel incident, in which he saved that deputy; it was in this area.
I took a robbery report recently, from a teenager who was set upon by FIVE bad guys, two from one direction, armed with at least a shotgun, and three from another direction, armed with at least one 9mm handgun. The two groups appeared to be coordinating their robbery with mobile phones, and it may have been a gang initiation robbery. The complainant dodged, ducked, and ran, then dodged, ducked, ran again, and went over two fences to get away. It seems the bad guys wanted his I-pod. Until shortly before this incident, I had walked our dogs in that very area, and still sometimes stop at a small convenience store there. I still have relatives that live in that neighborhood, which is a "nice" neighborhood. I sometimes walk their dogs for them in that area. While the complainant got by without a firearm, he was also much quicker and agile than me, plus very lucky. There was no indication my complainant was a gang member; he was just trying to walk home from his after-school job.
A couple of weeks after this robbery attempt, two blocks away, a couple was robbed by two gun-toting white guys. While no shots were fired, how do y'all think the male complainant would have felt if the bad guys would have wanted to take his girlfriend/wife with them for post-robbery entertainment?
After finishing a long night shift in the 1980's, I got home and pulled my S&W M58 from the duty rig, and heard metal rattling in a way that should not be. I removed the grip screw, pulled the grip panels apart, and out fell the mainspring, in two pieces. I had gotten in a hurry the evening before, and neglected to strap my backup J onto my ankle. And, no, before anyone mentions it, my M58's mainspring was stock; it had not been "shaved" or otherwise altered. I have been somewhat religious about backup weapons since then, even if that backup was just a very stout blade, at times.
The second scenario above brings up the factor of being responsible for the safety of others. Being alone, with just the desire to break contact, differs greatly from being with folks who are slower, weaker, or otherwise unable to see to their own defense. Five rounds is probably plenty for breaking off an attack, if you have room to maneuver. If I have to move to rescue someone, I want far more than five rounds. This is a decision every armed person has to make for himself, and still be able to look at himself in the mirror after an incident.
From about 2002 to 2007, my most-carried handgun was a Ruger SP101 snubby, loaded with hot .357 ammo. My second-most-carried handgun was a second SP101, similarly loaded. 2002 is the year I had to give up 1911 pistols for duty/carry, and started using a G22 for duty. I generally carried TWO SP101 snubbies when out of uniform; sometimes even a third revolver, SP101 or Speed Six. In 2007, I finally settled on a couple of good concealment holsters for my P229 duty pistols, and a SP101 gradually ceased being a permanent attachment to my body, and became a selectively-carried back-up by 2008.
For about a year now, I have usually carried two P229 pistols with me at all times. It is not because I think five shots is not enough, but because I think two handguns may not be enough. THAT should probably be discussed in a new thread, rather than causing this one to drift. Google FBI, Platt, Florida, Hanlon, Dove, Mireles. That incident was a microcosm of what can happen when things go really bad.
For what it is worth, I have fired one shot in the line of duty, which hit one bad guy in the important bits, and it was enough. One shot, not to the COM in general, but to the heart and left lung, in particular. If I had just hit a lung, I might well have needed more. Had it been a slower-moving bullet, I might well have needed more. Or, perhaps a .32 ACP on the same place would have worked. (I used a Federal 125-grain full-power .357 mag JHP.)
I remember the previously-mentioned Neel incident, in which he saved that deputy; it was in this area.
manfromyard
Member
I haven't seen how many shots actually HIT the assailant. If she only hit him with 2 or 3 shots, then all the other ones were wasted and she could have potentially hit innocents. The issue of how many bullets a person needs is directly tied in with their ability to actually hit the target in an effective spot. That is, assuming there's only one armed assailant. Once you have multiples, it's not a question of how many shots you need, it's how well you can use cover and get the heck out of the area.
I am quite new to concealed carry and to this forum. I have found this thread to be quite interesting.
First I would like to say thank you to all the LEO's out there.
For the rest of us, at least from my point of view carrying a gun makes me even more vigilant in avoiding any confrontation. I highly recommend a book by Gavin De Becker called "the Gift of Fear".
My firearm gives me some sense of security for the safety of my family and myself in a last resort situation. It also gives me many enjoyable days at the range practicing my skills. Skills that I have never tested in a life and death situation and hope I never do.
You can not possibly know how many rounds you will need going into an unknown situation.
Carry what makes you feel secure. Carry what you can shoot well, especially those first shots. Do everything in your power to never need to use it.
If I must go somewhere I do not feel safe, not only do I bring my weapon but I take a friend or two as well.
First I would like to say thank you to all the LEO's out there.
For the rest of us, at least from my point of view carrying a gun makes me even more vigilant in avoiding any confrontation. I highly recommend a book by Gavin De Becker called "the Gift of Fear".
My firearm gives me some sense of security for the safety of my family and myself in a last resort situation. It also gives me many enjoyable days at the range practicing my skills. Skills that I have never tested in a life and death situation and hope I never do.
You can not possibly know how many rounds you will need going into an unknown situation.
Carry what makes you feel secure. Carry what you can shoot well, especially those first shots. Do everything in your power to never need to use it.
If I must go somewhere I do not feel safe, not only do I bring my weapon but I take a friend or two as well.
red headed stranger
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- Feb 4, 2006
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- 36
There are a couple ideas being thrown out there by those espousing the 5 is enough philosophy:
The problem is very few of us know how well we can hit a moving active shooter while under the stress of the situation. Most people's skills are severely degraded under pressure even if they are "well trained." This coupled with the fact that Handgun rounds are marginal stoppers, make me more likely to carry more than just a j-frame. I am not advocating "spray and pray" mind you. I am advocating shooting the goblin(s) until they stop.
I agree, that if your strategy is to disengage and get out of Dodge, 5 shots is probably plenty. However, many may not be able, or desire to disengage if others are still in danger. If I were in a situation in which my wife and kids were with me, I would need to ensure that they are they were out of harms way before leaving myself. That may require a few more rounds. This largely dictates my own comfort level with the amount of rounds I have may have on me. (26-31 in most cases.) I'm not saying I would use all of them, but I sincerely would prefer to have and not need, rather than need and not have. Also keep in mind that if your are carrying a bottom feeder, it is a darn good thing to have a reload to clear some malfunctions.
That is my opinion. YMMV.
The problem is very few of us know how well we can hit a moving active shooter while under the stress of the situation. Most people's skills are severely degraded under pressure even if they are "well trained." This coupled with the fact that Handgun rounds are marginal stoppers, make me more likely to carry more than just a j-frame. I am not advocating "spray and pray" mind you. I am advocating shooting the goblin(s) until they stop.
I agree, that if your strategy is to disengage and get out of Dodge, 5 shots is probably plenty. However, many may not be able, or desire to disengage if others are still in danger. If I were in a situation in which my wife and kids were with me, I would need to ensure that they are they were out of harms way before leaving myself. That may require a few more rounds. This largely dictates my own comfort level with the amount of rounds I have may have on me. (26-31 in most cases.) I'm not saying I would use all of them, but I sincerely would prefer to have and not need, rather than need and not have. Also keep in mind that if your are carrying a bottom feeder, it is a darn good thing to have a reload to clear some malfunctions.
That is my opinion. YMMV.
SwampWolf
Member
Hey, bubba, you don't know me or others from Adam and yet you apparently feel free to hurl insults at people just because they don't agree with your point of view. Words like "stupid" and "short sighted" and the above quoted juvenile slam just doesn't cut it when adults are trying to have a civil discourse.
For your information, though not close to being the best shot in the world, I've pounded a lot of lead downrange over the past fifty or so years in many shooting disciplines. In addition to thousands of shots fired in recreational and hunting pursuits, I spent four years as an Air Policeman in the USAF where I competed during that period of time with rifle and handgun; shot on the intercollegiate trap team; shot on numerous bullseye teams as well as the local trapshooting league; qualified bi-annually for 26 years while serving the state in law enforcement; shot in countless firearm self-defense courses and have competed regularly at Camp Perry in both bullseye pistol and the service rifle course of fires (am scheduled this year again for same as well as shooting the "pop-ups" this April).
I am pushing 66 years old and am struggling with cataracs and "floaters" in my eyes. That said, walking inside that barn you talk about scares me none at all. But, unlike yourself, bubba, my years of training and experience have taught me that the stress of a shootout will cause most people to miss more times than they ever thought they could when they were competing on the range or even while participating in the most demanding and realistic training known to man. Maybe even missing your target while inside that barn! Good training that kicks in and a cool composure while under fire will help immeasurably in your surviving a gunfight. But if you don't plan and train for the possibility of missing a shot or two, well, bubba, your "training" needs to start reckoning with reality.
Like I said earlier, nobody I know of that was involved in a gunfight ever complained about having too many bullets on board. When you need that sixth shot, you really need it.
No one ever complained his gun was too small or the bullet too slow either. That isn't the time to ask people. After a fight no gun is enough.
So it's a worthless point.
But given your alleged age and physical condition you absolutely need 15+ rounds. Don't settle for any less.
XavierBreath
Member
I hated to close this thread. The topic is an important one to many people. Unfortunately, some folks just could not stay away from personal attacks.
That is indeed unfortunate.
That is indeed unfortunate.
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