How to shop for a 1911 and save lots of money keeping the one you have

[bikemutt]

I have a Sig 1911 Nightmare Carry that has been trigger worked by my gunsmith, Cylinder & Slide parts etc. I really, really like this pistol, if it's at all possible to love a gun, this may well be it

So I got the notion that if a $1000 Sig is this nice, a $3000 Ed Brown must be like heaven on earth.

Anyway, I found a dealer about 35 minutes down the road that had a bunch of Eds, all bobtail carry models, headed down there at lunch.

After handling all the Eds and my Sig, I, for the life of me, could not see where the additional $2000 went. I was prepared to trade the Sig but really, based solely on handling the the Eds and my Sig, I wouldn't trade the Sig if the Eds were the same price.

I know I must be missing something, maybe it's all in the shooting?

Not mentioning this to cause a food fight, just want to be enlightened if anyone cares to jump in.

 

[kcofohio]

Might this help? This guy has quite the collection of 1911's. He goes through from cheap the pricy.

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/buyers-guide-for-all-you-1911-addicts.511/

 

[TestPilot]

for the life of me, could not see where the additional $2000 went.

- Manual labor, which may or may not matter.

- Material, which may or may not matter.

- Low production rate requiring manufacturer to charge high profit margin per unit.

You, and probably absolute majority of the people, won't see where that additional $2000 went because it is certainly not going to where it makes a $3000 1911 shoot 3 times better than a $1000 one. It mostly goes to details that may or may not matter.


Don't go buy these custom or so called "semi-custom" expecting it will be better. "Better" is the wrong word for it. Proper word is perhaps "suitable." While these 3000+ 1911 may be suitable for some people, they're kind of rare.

I had enough money laying around to afford them if I wanted one, but I did not buy one. It's not because it is bad. It just does not make any sense for my needs. There are things that these pistols offer that cheaper ones do not, but those details does not particulaly apply to my situation.

If you need a "match grate precision guarantee at 50 yards out of the box" kind of thing, then it makes sense. If it offers some features that is absolutely required for you, and it cannot be found in mass manufactured ones, it might make sense for you. Otherwise, you won't get anything out of the extra expense.

 

[JTQ]

I'm pretty sure it's not the "accuracy thing" that is the difference between the semi custom and the production 1911. It is more the quality of parts and how they are put together. One would expect the semi custom to have a longer life span, through more rounds, with fewer parts breakages than the production 1911.

If you're only going to shoot 10,000 rounds (a purely arbitrary number) or less through your 1911, you'll probably never know the difference. If you are well north of 50,000 to 100,000 rounds, you probably probably appreciate the difference.

I've saved a bunch of money over the years at gun shows and in gun stores handling lots of firearms. I always end up asking myself, do i like this one better than the one I have at home?

 

[JDGray]

The best shooting 1911 I have owned, is a SA Mil spec... $540 new

 

[LiveLife]

When I set out to replace the 1911 I sold years ago, I wanted a Dan Wesson PM7.

After failing to locate one, I recalled various other match shooters' 1911s I shot when I shot USPSA matches and range tested all available 1911s my local range had (SA, Kimbers, etc.) along with 1911s of my friends/family.

I ended up "settling" on railed Sig 1911 XO TacPac with the intent of buying a PM7 when I came across one in the future.

I have shot over 7500+ rounds with my Sig and other than the recoil spring replacement, the finish is holding up very well and experienced no parts breakage. I use the Sig as my range platform for load development and accuracy testing and still maintains accuracy even with cheaper lead "plinking" load of 200 gr SWC and 4.0 gr of Red Dot/Promo. Below is a picture of recent shot group at 15 and 25 yards shot off sand bags - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9415802#post9415802

I think 2" shot group at 25 yards is pretty good for a sub $1000 1911 with 7000+ rounds through it. I recently found another Dan Wesson PM7 and it sure was nicer to handle but since I was happy with the accuracy/reliability of Sig 1911 that's been munching on SWC reloads without complaints, I decided to just keep on shooting my Sig.

 

[9mmepiphany]

After handling all the Eds and my Sig, I, for the life of me, could not see where the additional $2000 went. I was prepared to trade the Sig but really, based solely on handling the the Eds and my Sig, I wouldn't trade the Sig if the Eds were the same price.

I know I must be missing something, maybe it's all in the shooting?

For all practical purposes, there isn't much apparent difference between your SIG and a RIA 1911 either.

It is all in the value you place on handwork and proper fitting...most folks wouldn't really recognize the difference, even when it is pointed out to them. It is like the difference between a $200 watch and one costing $10k

 

[LiveLife]

For all practical purposes, there isn't much apparent difference between your SIG and a RIA 1911 either

From target's point-of-view out to about 15 yards, no.

When I got to shoot a couple of RIA Tactical right out of the box, I was pleasantly surprised that they shot well. When my friend wanted an entry level 1911, I suggested the RIA Tactical and after several thousand rounds, it still keeps up with my Sig out to about 15 yards but opens up more than the Sig at 25 yards.

Finished surfaces inside the slide and frame are not as smooth and refined as the Sig but the tapered chamber allows even sloppy out-of-spec SWC reloads to feed well after the tighter Sig barrel rejects them.

But the 5" Sig 1911s are built on stainless steel frame/slide with much nicer finish and after several thousand rounds, my Sig looks almost new compared to my friend's RIA that shows many scratches with wear spots almost showing shiny metal underneath.

If appearance was not a factor, I would gladly pick up 2 RIA Tactical for the price of one Sig or many other 1911s costing more than $1000.

 

[MCMXI]

After handling all the Eds and my Sig, I, for the life of me, could not see where the additional $2000 went.

I have three Ed Browns but didn't pay anthing close to $3,000 for them. My Special Forces Carry was around $2,100. Anyway, I also have two Dan Wessons and two Kimbers, and yes, the Ed Browns are worth every penny. Handling a pistol in a store is like sitting in a new car in a showroom. It tells you very little about what it'll be like to own and use it on a daily basis.

 

[bikemutt]

For all practical purposes, there isn't much apparent difference between your SIG and a RIA 1911 either.

It is all in the value you place on handwork and proper fitting...most folks wouldn't really recognize the difference, even when it is pointed out to them. It is like the difference between a $200 watch and one costing $10k

9mm, in this case I have to disagree with your assessment; there are obvious differences between the Sig and an RIA 1911. I know this because I checked out the RIAs, AMTs etc before I bought the Sig. Not saying anything bad about the others but the fit, finish, slide action, sights, grips and more are far better on the Sig. Now the Sig trigger out of the box was not good IMO, and that explains $200 of the $1k I have into it. I always assume I'll have to dump $200 into any gun I buy to "fix" the trigger", and in all fairness to Ed, that trigger needs no fixing.

I do think you have a good point though concerning timepieces; I've found that roughly around $800 is where it's pretty hard to justify the minuscule improvement attainable by spending more.

 

[bikemutt]

I have three Ed Browns but didn't pay anthing close to $3,000 for them. My Special Forces Carry was around $2,100. Anyway, I also have two Dan Wessons and two Kimbers, and yes, the Ed Browns are worth every penny. Handling a pistol in a store is like sitting in a new car in a showroom. It tells you very little about what it'll be like to own and use it on a daily basis.

The cheapest of the Ed's I looked at today was $2695 for the SF Carry you mentioned and $2895 for the Executive Carry, both plus tax (9.5%). The Sig cost me $800 (tax incl) plus $200 for the trigger job.

Your point is well taken though, sitting in a car tells you a lot; driving one, over time, tells you a lot more. Maybe that I'm perfectly happy driving my 2013 Chevy Recall helps explain my puzzlement over the 1911s I examined today.

 

[LiveLife]

Maybe that I'm perfectly happy driving my 2013 Chevy Recall helps explain my puzzlement over the 1911s I examined today.

I would prefer to liken my Sig 1911 as an underrated Corvette in the world of exotics like Ferraris and Lamborghinis.

It may not get the respect of having an external extractor or "dimensionally" correct slide but it sure keeps on feeding and chambering SWC reloads and puts them on target without issues, even with factory magazines.

Reading 1911 threads, many 1911s seem to have feeding/chambering issues out of the box, even the ones costing way more than $1000. Despite the notions passed at the Corvette Z06/ZR1 by the fans of the exotics, they keep posting faster Nürburgring times than the exotics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

Here's what Hilton Yam had to say about the Sig 1911 TacOps which shares the same frame/slide/barrel/triggers/etc. with other 5" Sig 1911s - http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1673

I was quite impressed with the build and small parts quality of the Sig TacOps. It was well put together, with no obvious machining marks or other defects. The street price of around $1100 puts it in the ball park for what one should expect to pay for a well built factory gun with quality workmanship and internal parts.

 

[9mmepiphany]

9mm, in this case I have to disagree with your assessment; there are obvious differences between the Sig and an RIA 1911.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing on something like this.

The first thing I look at is how well the manufacturer fitted the grip safety to the frame...I noticed, on the Nightmare, that SIG did a very good job of hiding their fit by tapering the beavertail...then I look at the recoil spring guide to see if they have beveled it to the foot of the barrel. Another thing I like to look at is how they have beveled the slide stop where it bears against the plunger.

I've long ago stopped getting folks to like the modification that I have done to a 1911. What everyone likes is really just a reflection of their experience with the platform and it's intended use

 

[MCMXI]

bikemutt, I've owned SIG products for 22 years and still have the first P220 that I bought in Oregon in '92. I currently own three P220s, two P225s and a P239 so it came as no surprise that SIG makes a good 1911. I've handled and shot a number of SIG 1911s and found them to be perfectly adequate. I might even buy a Tactical Operations TB to use with my AAC Ti-RANT.

 

[TestPilot]

If you're only going to shoot 10,000 rounds (a purely arbitrary number) or less through your 1911, you'll probably never know the difference. If you are well north of 50,000 to 100,000 rounds, you probably probably appreciate the difference.

I also put that into consideration.

Even then, its vaule only shines in a limited category of people. If someone is shooting 50000+ rounds, that person is either using it as an operational weapon or an enthusiast of fine guns who can afford to use $3000+ as an expendable item.

Either way, for people who shoots that much, a gun is an expendable item. For someone who use the gun as a operational weapon, spending 3~4 times or even higher more for a gun that is expendable does not give much of an advantage when it's not like the gun will last 3~4 times longer(you stated an arbitrary amount of 10000 rounds, but I see no reason why a quality production one will not last at least 20000 when proper maintenance is done).

Also, it is not like the $3000+ gun does not need maintenance. When parts get replaced, it also needs to be precision fit to maintain that $3000+ gun performance, meaning more expensive maintenance which can only be done by an experienced gun smith, which does not make much sense for an operational use gun, unless you have so much money and resources to have an expert smith on call. Also, people who use gun for that purpose often needs to run a fleet. Thay cannot afford to run operations with a single "one of a kind" gun. I may have enough money to use a Wilson Combat for security use, but I certainly do not want to not have my primary pistol for days or even more when I need to replace a part for periodic maintenance. Of course I can do a DIY fitting or use drop in parts, but then it won't maintain that $3000+ gun value.

My primary pistol for security use is M&P40 and I have at least 3 identical ones, not including other M&P family I own. I run a fleet of them to keep it operational.

So, as far as people who $3000+ 1911 makes sense, they are limited to people who are enthusiast of fine weapons who can afford to regularly wear out such expensive guns, and either don't mind of their only expensive primary pistol goes down for maintenance or have so much money that they can run multiple identical $3000+ guns.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with buying a fine hand crafted weapon just to enjoy it. This is just a coounter argument to the assertion that it may be better for high volume shooters.

 

[HexHead]

The difference is partially stuff you can't see. When I had two Kimbers, a Pro Carry II and a Royal II, I couldn't imagine I'd be able to tell the difference between them and spending $1000 more than the both of them on a 1911. I first saw a Nighthawk at the NRA Meeting as they really didn't have dealers then. I was impressed with how smooth they felt compared to my Kimbers, just racking them. I ended up ordering a Talon II Bobtail and waited the 14 or so weeks for it to be built to my specs.

I took it and the Pro Carry to the range to compare apples to apples. I fired a mag from the Kimber, getting my usual very nice group. Put it down and shot a mag through the NHC, first time I ever shot it, and shot a group half the size of the Kimber's.

Yeah, I could tell the difference.

 

[bikemutt]

Some of the message boards I've landing on researching the Eds and Nighthawks of the world astonish me; many folks own a fleet of these things. And none of them come across as snobbish in the least, it's just how it is, they've found a platform and manufacturer where the performance and ownership experience transcends the acquisition cost. I think that's great, life is too short to shortchange one's pursuit of happiness. I'm guilty of the same with respect to my shotgun, a Browning Citori 28 gauge double that set me back $2500. My bird hunting buddy's $600 Benelli 12 gauge auto kills as many, if not more birds. Still, on a crisp fall day in the field with dogs, guns, birds and good friends, the Citori just feels "right", it becomes priceless in the moment.

 

[HexHead]

Some of the message boards I've landing on researching the Eds and Nighthawks of the world astonish me; many folks own a fleet of these things. And none of them come across as snobbish in the least, it's just how it is, they've found a platform and manufacturer where the performance and ownership experience transcends the acquisition cost. I think that's great, life is too short to shortchange one's pursuit of happiness. I'm guilty of the same with respect to my shotgun, a Browning Citori 28 gauge double that set me back $2500. My bird hunting buddy's $600 Benelli 12 gauge auto kills as many, if not more birds. Still, on a crisp fall day in the field with dogs, guns, birds and good friends, the Citori just feels "right", it becomes priceless in the moment.

It's nice to see someone on here that "gets it".

 

[tarosean]

helps explain my puzzlement over the 1911s I examined today.

Your paying for an American craftsman to work. You see vast price differences in everything that is production line made vs. hand built. From the aforementioned to vehicles, watches, knifes, furniture, restaurants, etc, etc, etc. We can go on and on with different analogies.

 

[TestPilot]

On a side note, the most expensive 1911 in operational use I've heard of was a Morris custom by an LAPD officer. Don't know if this person actually carries it, or just have it on his list of weapons registered to his department for duty use.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

When ever I get an itch to buy a gun I really shouldn't, I ask myself

do i like this one better than the one I have at home?

and also "Will this gun do anything one of my guns at home won't do?"

Those two questions have saved me considerable money.

I'm sure the Ed Brown's are nice though. I'm just not putting that kind of money down. I want to retire someday.

 

[JTQ]

TestPilot wrote,
This is just a coounter argument to the assertion that it may be better for high volume shooters.

My primary pistol for security use is M&P40 and I have at least 3 identical ones,

Why did you spend the extra money for the M&P 40? You could have bought 3 Sigma's for less money.

 

[LiveLife]

Ultimately, life is short and we can't take money/guns with us when we die.

If you have extra money you can afford to part with, I see nothing wrong with buying nicer things in life to enjoy now and leaving them to children for them to enjoy after I die. For me, I prefer my children enjoy my nicer things while I am alive as well.

But as OP and 9mmepiphany posted, if you are happy with a particular firearm that is reliable and accurate, the need to spend extra money for a nicer pistol is moot, especially if money could be spent on something else (for me, on other shooting/reloading items).

 

[george burns]

Here is the way it is with most things that cost a lot of money. You are paying for a 1-10% increase in the performance of the product.
A guy who spends $100,000 on a stereo system, will hear perhaps "and only if he has good ears" a 1-5% difference over a 5-10 thousand dollar unit.
Guns are the same, you really would need to be a good enough shot to see the difference. Otherwise it's just a case of want.
Nothing wrong with wanting things, A Porshe can take a turn 10% faster than a less expensive corvette. If you are a professional driver, you will see it right away, if not, then you probably never will.
Don't forget much of this is status. Guys and their toys. Some love to brag about how much this or that cost them and how they have the only one of 100 made. it's human nature in a sense.
It's the guy with the old marked up 1911 that can empty it in a 2 seconds and hit all 10's that you need to watch out for.
I never believed in the "accuracy" debate, usually if someone is a good shot, no matter what they pick up, they are going to shoot it well.

 

[tarosean]

I never believed in the "accuracy" debate, usually if someone is a good shot, no matter what they pick up, they are going to shoot it well.

Don't know about you, but this picture is pretty impressive IMO. They have been posting a few of these to their FB page.