How would you interpret these down range results?

[Nature Boy]

I've been back to the range 3 times after originally posting this and results are still inconsistent. Apologies for the following data overload.

One piece of advice given was particularly interesting: Finding your natural point of aim. I've incorporated that into my pre-shot routine

To rule out the load, I went back and did a full ladder test following the method outlined on accurateshooter.com using 168g AMAX, Varget, 210m primers and Lapua brass. I got off the bipod and onto a shooting bag and shot the test at 200 yards (don't have a 300 yard lane). Everything shot in round robin fashion. Charge weights as noted below.

First 10 shows why 300 yards is recommended. Hard to discern the vertical dispersion due to velocity changes at 200. The squares on the target are 1" So without the flyer and with charges ranging from 41.9-44.6 that's 1 MOA.....but this shows why a statistically significant sample size is important

Completing the test resulted in this dogs breakfast of a target, however, coloring the tips of the bullets, combined with the chrono data allowed me to say there was a potential node at #6 (43.1) and #7 (42.8), which correlates to shot #4 and #5 on the chrono list

So yesterday I loaded up a bunch with 43.1g and my high hopes were dashed when nothing grouped better than 1.5" at 100 yards. I'm suspecting something may be out of whack with the rifle. I'm going to clean the barrel really well to rule out any fouling, shoot it one more time, then I'll have the gunsmith look at it for bedding issues or a barrel problem.

 

[Nature Boy]

One more piece of data. Here's the chrono list from yesterday. I think this rules out my reloading process when I'm getting a SD of 8 and ES of 31. Do you all agree or not?

 

[mokin]

I've got nothing to add but seeing your targets has inspired me to get my .308 out and resume the accuracy project I was working on last spring before my day job got in the way. It looks like you've got minute of prairie dog dialed in quite well.

 

[horsey300]

I've been back to the range 3 times after originally posting this and results are still inconsistent. Apologies for the following data overload.

One piece of advice given was particularly interesting: Finding your natural point of aim. I've incorporated that into my pre-shot routine

To rule out the load, I went back and did a full ladder test following the method outlined on accurateshooter.com using 168g AMAX, Varget, 210m primers and Lapua brass. I got off the bipod and onto a shooting bag and shot the test at 200 yards (don't have a 300 yard lane). Everything shot in round robin fashion. Charge weights as noted below.

First 10 shows why 300 yards is recommended. Hard to discern the vertical dispersion due to velocity changes at 200. The squares on the target are 1" So without the flyer and with charges ranging from 41.9-44.6 that's 1 MOA.....but this shows why a statistically significant sample size is important

Completing the test resulted in this dogs breakfast of a target, however, coloring the tips of the bullets, combined with the chrono data allowed me to say there was a potential node at #6 (43.1) and #7 (42.8), which correlates to shot #4 and #5 on the chrono list

So yesterday I loaded up a bunch with 43.1g and my high hopes were dashed when nothing grouped better than 1.5" at 100 yards. I'm suspecting something may be out of whack with the rifle. I'm going to clean the barrel really well to rule out any fouling, shoot it one more time, then I'll have the gunsmith look at it for bedding issues or a barrel problem.

I won't blame your loading practices, but I dealt with a similar situation with my brother's .338 wm in a ruger 77. Couldn't get a decent group even at 50 and occasionally wasn't sure if I have even made contact, was also taking repeated blow after blow to the face from the scope no matter WHAT I did to hold it! Finally as I stood up in disgust, I lifted the rifle vertically by the barrel, turned, half stumbled on a gopher mound, and the forend rattled!!!! Tightened that screw down and shot .75" with factory loads. A more stupid feeling problem neither of us have ever felt. I'll send a nod towards getting the gun checked out! After that.....hard to say without seeing it firsthand.

 

[1stmarine]

I think you are doing all the right things and like I said before load tuning doesn't seem to be your issue.
I can make more suggestions but I think at this point are just all wild guesses that might even create confusion.
It is very hard to diagnose something like this w/o being present and w/o close inspection.
I am sure you will find the answer.

 

[Averageman]

Similar problem, similar scope and bipod.
In the end I chalked it up to my own error. I was fatigued and not really doing my best shooting.

 

[Llama Bob]

If you have access to a known-good rifle, you might just shoot a session with that and make sure you're shooting well.

 

[farmerboy78]

I would try to find a longer range and redo that ladder test, because the charge you are running is safe for a 175gr. I believe that you will have a higher node.

 

[Nature Boy]

If you have access to a known-good rifle, you might just shoot a session with that and make sure you're shooting well.

I do and that's a great idea.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

It looks to me that the rifle is very accurate, and I can only conclude shooter error, maybe fatigue.

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[Nature Boy]

Update:

I believe I'm about at the point where I'm convinced that I've shot out my barrel.

I sprung for a Sinclair front rest just to make sure I'm giving myself the most stable platform I can (plus, I've been wanting one )

Shooting my best load that generally gives me 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards can't do any better that 1" now. Before on top, current state on bottom

No matter what I do, this is the best it will deliver. I've ruled about everything else (thanks for your feedback) and the barrel is the only thing left so it's going to the smith for him to borescope.

FN claims the barrel to be good for 10k rounds but what's "good" Is relative. I have between 5-6k through it and I have no qualms with replacing it based on what it's doing now.

If the smith confirms that the barrel is the problem I'll be asking for input from you guys on what direction to take (brand, who to send it to, etc)

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

 

[macgrumpy]

After looking at your targets I think that either one of the stock/receiver/barrel/scope components are moving or, as you believe, the barrel is worn out.

I'd try cleaning the barrel very well with Bore Tech products (their bore cleaner and copper cleaner) and then using the Tubb Final Finish Bore Lapping kit. If your groups return to what you expect then there are two possibilities, either your cleaning process isn't working or the bore is getting worn.

I used to be a Range Master at a large public range and I've helped restore many rifles to what the owners expected for accuracy by using Bore Tech Eliminator and their Proof Positive nylon bore brushes - no I'm not trying to sell anything, I'm just telling you what I use.

One thing to look for (and I haven't really tried to see if this theory fits your circumstances, I'm just pointing out that it's another thing to look for) is a cyclic pattern of rising muzzle velocities and then sudden drops. The theory is that a rough barrel that fouls easily will pickup fouling which causes the muzzle velocity to increase (due to progressively decreasing bore diameter). After the bore becomes fouled to a certain degree a bullet will swage some of the fouling out and the muzzle velocity will drop close to what it was when the cycle started. When I look at your target with the different colored bullets, the only pattern I can see clearly is the red bullets and I see that the red impacts mostly are centered in one spot but a couple of impacts are high. The low impacts correspond to the slower bullets and the higher impacts correspond to the faster bullets so it would appear that the velocities stayed pretty much the same and then increased a couple of times. I'm not saying that this is what's happening but it's possible, you need to analyze the target for this possibility.

 

[Nature Boy]

I'd try cleaning the barrel very well with Bore Tech products (their bore cleaner and copper cleaner) and then using the Tubb Final Finish Bore Lapping kit. If your groups return to what you expect then there are two possibilities, either your cleaning process isn't working or the bore is getting worn.

Thanks Grumpy

I believe I've ruled out copper fouling. Cleaned thoroughly with a foaming cleaner that usually shows blue when copper is present. This rifle, as apposed to others I have (1903A3 being the worst) rarely shows any copper on the patch. That said, I cleaned the heck out of it till every patch showed no trace of anything. I wanted to make sure that box got checked. I'll also add that I have a bottle of Bore Tech in my Amazon shopping cart. I'll buy it when I have more items to go with it.

When I look at your target with the different colored bullets, the only pattern I can see clearly is the red bullets and I see that the red impacts mostly are centered in one spot but a couple of impacts are high. The low impacts correspond to the slower bullets and the higher impacts correspond to the faster bullets so it would appear that the velocities stayed pretty much the same and then increased a couple of times. I'm not saying that this is what's happening but it's possible, you need to analyze the target for this possibility.

One thing to keep in mind when looking at that picture. The red and purple left marks that were similar and required closer inspection to discern the difference. Not saying you aren't on to something, but I believe I've cleaned the bore well enough to rule that out.

In any event, I'll know for sure when the smith borescopes it.

 

[Bart B.]

FN claims the barrel to be good for 10k rounds but what's "good" Is relative. I

At 5000 rounds, a Garand throat erosion gauge reads about "5" and if "10" which normally at about 10,000 rounds, that's it's service life. That's also the barrel life for M14 service rifles to shoot inside 3 MOA at 100 yards. 30-06 rifles winning matches and setting records in their heyday for competition were rebarreled at about 2500 rounds. That's also when Sierra Bullets rebarreled their 30-06 test rigs shooting several 30 caliber bullet types for quality tests.

 

[bikemutt]

I was at the range yesterday with a Savage 10 FCP .308 I've finally started reloading for. I'll start be saying there were no bad groups at 100 yards, and there were some really good ones.

What I wanted to add is I had a good friend with me who is an excellent marksman and a far more accomplished shooter than I, despite him being 30 years younger than myself

His first 5-shot group was the best of all our combined groups; his second 5-shot group was the worst.

The event I observed between his first and second groups was he went back to range work on his AR15, a rifle who's accuracy has frustrated him. He finally packed it up in a huff, I've been there myself.

Can a person's mood affect precision shooting? I think so. For me, it doesn't have to be something at work, at home, or on the road. Maybe it's just a bad arthritis day, or a hurried first few groups that sets the tone.

Not saying that's your situation Nature Boy, just wanted to mention something I've observed when the groups give me pause.

 

[Nature Boy]

Can a person's mood affect precision shooting? I think so. For me, it doesn't have to be something at work, at home, or on the road. Maybe it's just a bad arthritis day, or a hurried first few groups that sets the tone.

Very true. It happens to me from time to time and if I'm frustrated or can't let go of the work stress I will pack up and go to the house, leaving my unfired rounds for another day.

That's not the problem here however. Last weekend I took my son's very accurate .223 bolt action along with me and shot multiple sub MOA groups with it.

Since I'm only competing against myself it does me no good to blow smoke up my own rear end. I critique myself fairly honestly

 

[Bart B.]

People shooting craps with a pair of dice know very well the number for each throw will be somewhere from 2 to 12. Most in the middle 5-6-7-8-9 range and a few in the high 10-12 and low 2-4 ranges. And their first throw or two is not always the smallest numbers nor the middle nor the largest ones.

Most rifle shooters don't have nor use that reasoning. One or two few-shot groups is good enough. It's normal for top ranked rifle competitors to sometimes have a 6X spread across several few-shot groups' extreme spread. Identical to what happens when shooting craps. Check out the results of the top ten people's several 5-shot groups over a 2 or 3 day event.

What about a situation when all groups shot have a small spread about some size? That happens when accurate ammo's shot in an accurate rifle but the marksmanship level of the shooter masks their small range of repeatability. A 1/3rd MOA rifle plus ammo system fired by a 1 MOA shooter will often shoot groups 1.000 to 1.333 MOA.

 

[Nature Boy]

Update

Visited smith and got a look through his bore scope and was very surprised, not by barrel erosion but the amount of copper in the grooves. As I've stated before, I was SURE I had cleaned my rifle thoroughly. That was not the case.

He let me take the bore scope home and I pick up some Bore Tech CU and followed the instructions. 2 1/2 hours of clean and a pile of blue patches later I was finally confident I have a clean bore

The lesson for me is that not all cleaning products are made the same. I was using CLP and Otters Foaming bore cleaner. Not good enough. A real eye opener for sure

Headed back to the range today with the same load and shot 2 groups of 5 again. Those results on the bottom

Clearly an improvement. I'm going through my whole rifle inventory now to make sure what I thought was clean really is clean. Unbelievable

 

[JeffG]

Differing length of time between shot shots? Check neck thickness and trim length. Try getting off of the bipod, and set some sandbags. The only other factor I can think of, would be breaking sun and clouds between shots, or strings, and some warm barrel mirage in the scope..

 

[macgrumpy]

Update

Visited smith and got a look through his bore scope and was very surprised, not by barrel erosion but the amount of copper in the grooves. As I've stated before, I was SURE I had cleaned my rifle thoroughly. That was not the case.

He let me take the bore scope home and I pick up some Bore Tech CU and followed the instructions. 2 1/2 hours of clean and a pile of blue patches later I was finally confident I have a clean bore

The lesson for me is that not all cleaning products are made the same. I was using CLP and Otters Foaming bore cleaner. Not good enough. A real eye opener for sure

Headed back to the range today with the same load and shot 2 groups of 5 again. Those results on the bottom

Clearly an improvement. I'm going through my whole rifle inventory now to make sure what I though was clean really is clean. Unbelievable

I used to try to post my information about Bore Tech but I usually got told that I'm full of crap and that "good ol' no.9" is just as good - well it isn't. Many times I've had people tell me that they "knew" that their bore was clean and all I had to do was run one patch, using either Eliminator or CU+2 Copper Cleaner, through their bore and I'd get dirty patches. I've been cleaning guns for about 50 years and I've never found better products for cleaning guns. They don't have ammonia in them so you don't have to worry about damage to the bore and they don't have noxious smells that can hurt your lungs. I usually run a wet patch down the bore, punch it with a their nylon brush for 4 or 5 strokes, and then let it sit until the next day. Using this technique I can usually get a rifle cleaned with only a few patches and I spend only a total time of around 30 to 60 minutes cleaning a rifle.

People don't understand that your bore fouls in layers, depending on the bullet construction, it usually is composed of layers of carbon and copper - sometimes carbon and lead. Most chemicals only react to one kind of fouling - lead, copper, or carbon. I've never found a chemical that will react to all three and remove them. Bore Tech products are designed to remove only one of these fouling products at a time (although Eliminator will remove all three to some degree, it is best at removing carbon).

So to get your bore completely clean you need to start with one of the cleaners and remove the first layer of fouling. When the patch comes out clean, then you use one of the other cleaners and remove the next layer until the patches come out clean again. Usually you can start with Eliminator and remove the carbon layer and then switch to CU+2 and remove the copper layer. Then try using Eliminator a second time and see if you get any carbon on the patch, if you do, then you have to start the cycle over again.

When you clean after each shooting session you usually only have a single cycle of layers (one carbon and one copper). If you have shot the rifle on multiple shooting sessions then you'll probably have multiple layers of fouling and you will have to go through the Eliminator/CU+2 cycle multiple times.

I long time ago I did an experiment testing the Bore Tech cleaners and the theory that fouling existed as layers.

You can see how, after 5 or 10 patches, each cleaner would produce a clean patch, but then I'd switch to the other cleaner and I'd get more fouling. I always use a few dry patches in between changing chemicals so that I don't contaminate the current cleaner.

 

[Nature Boy]

I used to try to post my information about Bore Tech but I usually got told that I'm full of crap

Well MacGrumpy, consider this ordeal of mine as some vindication. I'll never use anything else again. I got both the copper and carbon remover solutions. Used them both.

After cleaning with my old combo of foaming bore cleaner, CLP and nylon brush, I could get clean patches after 10-15 passes. I called that clean.

Look at what came out on the first patch after the Bore Tech carbon remover and nylon brush.

That's from a "clean" bore

I honestly was in the camp that these cleaning products (marketing hype notwithstanding) were all pretty much the same. They are not.

I also ordered a Lyman borescope

 

[Nature Boy]

Differing length of time between shot shots? Check neck thickness and trim length. Try getting off of the bipod, and set some sandbags. The only other factor I can think of, would be breaking sun and clouds between shots, or strings, and some warm barrel mirage in the scope..

Jeff, I'm not getting down on you because I do this sometimes too, but your advice is about 2 pages behind

 

[HB]

I would say its human error. I've been playing with my 308 for about a year on and off. Some groups are a hole, some groups open up to a golfball or greater.

The internet wants you to make you think every rifle shoots bug holes. In reality it takes many years of practice and a good coach to obtain consistent shots in a small target. Check out the Halthcock method of sighting in a rifle....

I shot smallbore and air rifle in high school (Anshutz rifles, it wasn't the gun's fault). No muscle tension, no variance in breath, no variance in eye position or fatigue. That's what you need. What happens in reality is a different ballgame.

HB

 

[Nature Boy]

I would say its human error.

Well, there's human error in everything we touch, right?

In this case it looks like my major error was to assume my cleaning process was adequate