I am considering a Taurus 445 or 450 (and the advantages of .44spl & .45LC for SD)

[chaim]

This is a long post, I'll make a note where my questions are so those who don't like long posts can ignore the background and go straight to the ?s

OK, it is looking more and more likely that I will be going to a carry state next year for graduate school so I have been thinking alot about carry guns. I have largely decided upon a revolver as my primary carry gun (occasionally alternated w/ an auto like the S&W 908, CZ 100 and/or Taurus PT911 or used Taurus PT908).

I had more or less decided upon a customized RB 3" K-frame S&W .38 or .357 (probably a used S&W and not a Taurus because Taurus doesn't have a medium framed 3" and I don't want to pay $200 extra to have the barrel cut down plus there are fewer gunsmiths who specialize in Taurus to have do the work I want done, though I might still go Taurus despite the more limited smith choices and lack of preferred barrel length). Basically, in addition to a 3" barrel and RB I want Secret Service boot grips, a DAO conversion, a bobbed hammer spur, a matte/bead blast finish, a trigger job, possibly rounded/smoothed corners, possibly polished and chamfered chambers and possible sight modifications for speed/visability (front dot milled on, bead milled on front sight, three dot sights added or even night sights).

Anyway, I have been thinking about adding a 450 or 445 to the mix (maybe in addition, maybe instead).

I am a huge fan of the .357mag chambering and of .38+P in a defensive revolver, however in a carry/defensive revolver I see some advantages for the .44spl or .45LC chamberings. They rely on size and weight instead of speed (and thus high pressure) for their power thus the combination of recoil, and muzzle blast and flash to power is probably better. Less blast and it is easier on your hearing indoors, less flash and it better preserves your night vision, less recoil (at least proportionally to power) and you have faster follow up shots. Most decent .44spl and .45LC defensive loadings do have more or equal power compared to .38+P and they certainly are more capable than standard .38spl yet they have far less recoil and blast than a .357mag and most have less than a +P.

I have long been interested in the 450. Some of that had been novelty and romantic lure- the lure of the historic .45LC chambering plus I am already a fan of .45s (in the guise of .45acp). Also, I plan to buy a SAA clone or Vaquero in .45LC in the next year or so and ammo compatability (or reloading component compatability since I'll be reloading soon) would be nice. The 450 and 445 both are also somewhat less common than other defensive options so I wouldn't have what everyone else has at the range- a nice "feature". This gun is a small enough gun for pretty easy concealment (for when I'm in a CCW state) yet large and heavy enough to handle its powerful cartridge. Plus, this is not a particularly expensive gun so if I am unlucky enough to get into a defensive shooting and the police confiscate it for a time I won't have too much cash tied up in it. Now I am looking at some of the other advantages and I think it is a good idea to get one soon (by summers end at the latest).

However, I am starting to think about the 445 as well. Most .44 and .45 bullets are similiar or even the same in weight so the sectional density should be better while the hole is almost the same size so I'm not sure there is an advantage there for the .45. Also, while both the 450 and 445 are available in a matte stainless finish (giving me in the factory setup one of the modifications I want and thus saving me money) the 445 goes a step further to save even more in modifications- it is available in the CH ("Concealed Hammer," but more accurately, bobbed hammer) configuration but the 450 isn't.

Caliber questions for those who don't want to read whole thread
So a couple questions. First, those who are more familiar with such things, how do the .45LC and .44spl calibers compare? Which is more powerful and/or better suited to CCW (remember I am talking the Taurus here so don't get into hunting or Ruger only .45LC loadings)?
aluminium v. steel questions
Also, those with these guns, I am thinking about the aluminum version to save a bit of extra weight. Is an approx. 20oz. revolver enough to easily handle these calibers? The frame is large enough that this will never be a pocket gun. Thus, the 28oz steel gun will be plenty light for belt or IWB carry. One of the advantages here is the large powerful bullet and relatively light recoil= power and quick follow-up shots. So, is the weight savings worth the controllability trade-off for the aluminum gun?

Which gun
I really do want the 450, partly because I like the idea of the caliber and I've simply wanted that gun so long. However, the 445 being available w/ the bobbed hammer option (CH, officially in Taurus parlance "concealed hammer") it would save me some money on desired modifications. So which would you suggest (and this also needs to take caliber capabilities into account)? In the end I know I have to decide if the want factor and ammo compatability outweigh cost savings (assuming the two calibers are largely equal in capability which is my take on it), but I do want your suggestions.

 

[Haycreek]

44sp vs 45LC

There is very little difference in the "power" of the two mentioned. However, the scales will tip in favor for the 44sp. The 44sp is a very accurate round, the selection or bullets may be a little better and the sectonal density is a little better. I personally would pick the 44 sp. , both are pretty tame when using factory ammo and could serve well as a defensive handgun.

 

[chaim]

You know, I should probably add, do you guys think my take on these two calibers v. .38spl and .38+P is accurate? I think they are a tad bit more powerful than .38spl with similar recoil characteristics and about the same as +P (and better than +P with many loadings) with far faster follow-up shots than a +P. I'm pretty sure I'm right on that, but where I'm less clear is with the effect of the 2" barrel on these guns. Out of a 2" barrel is the .44spl, .45LC and .38spl/.38+P the best choice (i.e. do the larger calibers lose more out of these short barrels)?

 

[MK11]

Didn't Taurus just come out with a 5-shot .45 ACP snubby? I think it's part of the Tracker series.

 

[Jim March]

If you're going to reload later, the edge goes to the 45LC.

Here's why: it takes the same projectiles as the 45ACP, and hence can benefit from the advances in projectile design that have hit that caliber.

The Speer Gold Dot projectiles are available as components. ProLoad is pushing the 230grain variant at 850-900fps from 45LC cases, without +P pressure. That load would be a good defensive round for your gun, or you can roll your own to about the same spec (tuning for your barrel length) OR use the Gold Dot 185 or 200grainers to make up for a shorter barrel. As a general rule, a 45ACP with a 3" barrel won't get the best performance out of a 230 but the Gold Dots expand reliably enough that you could probably fudge that a bit.

 

[Nightcrawler]

You don't get the best velocity out of a snubby. Better then, I think, to have a nice fat bullet that, even if it doesn't expand well, is still pretty big to begin with.

 

[chaim]

I'm pretty sure I'm right on that, but where I'm less clear is with the effect of the 2" barrel on these guns. Out of a 2" barrel is the .44spl, .45LC and .38spl/.38+P the best choice (i.e. do the larger calibers lose more out of these short barrels)?

Now my question becomes even more complicated. Lets consider what I am actually considering for my carry gun if I go to school in a CCW state.

Out of a 2" barrel is the .44spl or .45LC a better choice than a .38spl/.38+P out of a 3" barrel? Will a .44spl or .45LC lose enough out of the 2" that the .38spl or +P is now on top when fired out of a 3" barrel?

 

[Jim March]

2" barrel? Jeez. I would recommend carefully picking a 45LC specimen with a tight gap, then carefully handloading a 185grain Gold Dot to about 850fps or a hair over if possible. This will take some very advanced handloading, careful powder and peak pressure selection, etc.

The other question is this: assuming a 3" barrel 357/38spl of the same size range, which is a SEVEN shot in the Taurus catalog, do you get a better personal defense package then even if you stick with 38+P or a "tactical lite" 357?

In my opinion, yes you do. Arguably, you do even if you run a sixgun like the GP100 with a 3" tube.

 

[chaim]

2" barrel? Jeez.

Yup, the 450 and 445 are either 2" or 2 1/2" (I don't remember for sure off hand).

assuming a 3" barrel 357/38spl of the same size range, which is a SEVEN shot in the Taurus catalog

Actually, the options are a 445 or 450 (probably w/ some custom work done) or a 3" K-frame S&W .38 or .357 that I would certainly have some work done to. Most likely I'll buy both, I don't know if I'll end up alternating them (then the 445/450 would get the work) or if the 445/450 end up being mostly for fun (then it may not get work, or maybe just the trigger job).

I'd consider a Taurus 3" .38 or .357 but the medium framed guns aren't made in 3" (the 82, 83, 65 and 66) and I don't want to pay $200 to have an inch of barrel cut off and recrowned. I'll have to double check if the Trackers currently come in 3" (I don't think so).

 

[Bulldozer]

Trackers do NOT come in three inch tubes. They used to make 3-inch pipes on the Models 80, 82, and 65, 66. I haven't seen one of those in a few years.

I'm having a hell of a time finding a smith to chop and recrown my 6-inch and 4-inch Trackers.

I've had the opportunity to shoot the 5-shot 44SPL snubby from Taurus and it was pleasant. Much more so than the Charter Arms Bulldog my buddy has.

Given my druthers, I'd take the 7 shots of 38/357 rather than the 5 of 44.

 

[Oracle]

I think that either the .44 Special or the .45LC would work well. If you're wanting to use factory carry ammo, then I'd get the .44 Special, as it has a greater range of factory carry ammo options. If you're wanting to carry reloads, I'd get the .45LC, as you can load these with any bullets designed for either the .45LC or the .45ACP, which gives you a very wide selection.

 

[Jim March]

Oracle, I'm not sure that's true anymore. Proload and Cor-Bon both have good 45LC defensive fodder available, and the "cowboy sports" have made low-cost lead plinking loads available, cheap if you do some digging.

The 45LC has more support now than it's had in generations.

 

[forquidder]

Taurus

Don't forget that the Taurus Compacts are ported with the ports starting at 1 1/2" out of a 2" barrel so it's tough to get good velocity out of them. Handloads or designer cartridges (Corbon, Buffalo Bore etc.) could give acceptable self defense velocities. The all steel version might hold up better with the hotter loads and last I looked CDNN still had them on sale for $269 (model 450). At that price it would be worth it for the "fun factor" alone.

 

[chaim]

Don't forget that the Taurus Compacts are ported...

That is one of the things that has me considering the 445 instead of the 450 that I'd otherwise prefer. In addition to being available in the CH configuration it can also be had without the ports (in the steel versions anyway) and I think all the 450s do have the ports. However, I was only thinking about blast and flash with the ports, I wasn't thinking about the loss of velocity. I guess the 445 is looking better all the time from a practical perspective (darn, and I really did want that 450).

 

[WebHobbit]

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with big Jim on the handloads thing.

It's NEVER a good idea to load up your own stuff for self-defense against humans.

It's a sad place we live in when we have to try and "Lawyer proof" our weapons/ammo but here we are.

If you were to use handloads in an SD situation the courts/lawyers would destroy you:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury Mr.March here is so blood thirsty & so murderous that standard off the shelf bullets were just NOT enough for him. He had to construct his own super-killer bullets to make sure my client was dead."

Something like that.

It's just not worth the risk when hollow-point factory ammo is readily available.

 

[popbang]

I have to agree with Jim March, I would take the .45 Colt due to he bullets available. I carry a weapon in .45 Colt and the load is pushing a 230 grain Gold Dot @ an average of 883fps out of a 3-3/4 inch barrel. (note: this is not a +P loading)

As a side note I would worry more about whether the shooting is deemed self defence or wrongful than I would worry about carrying handloads.

 

[WebHobbit]

From what I've read it won't matter if it's a "good shooting" or not the scum-bag is still gonna have a lawyer & he's gonna pick through every item on the list including ammo. Why tempt fate?

The ammo is one variable we CAN control.

 

[popbang]

In a civil case such an arguement might be made, but in that situation anything about you will be brought in. And there are ways of protecting yourself if you use handloads such as:

-keep accurate thorough records including lot numbers
-shoot several rounds from the lot so empties are available for cartridge ballistic identification
-make sure there is some loaded ammo from the lot you are carrying available for testing
-use a load that is in a loading manual
-keep bullet velocity in line with accepted factory standards
-get a lawyer that understands self-defence cases and tell that person you were using handloads so a court accepted expert can be brought in to support you (the lawyer you get for a civil case needs to understand self-defence cases whatever ammo you use as you will need experts to testify for you)

You may ask why I would carry my own loads, well the bottom line is I don't want to trust my life or the lives of any I love to somebody else.

Sorry to go off topic. Go with the Taurus in 45 Colt

 

[Jim March]

When you've got a gun in a really WEIRD barrel length for the caliber, and a 2" 44Spl or 45LC both qualify, it's a situation for handloading and can be explained that way. You're handlingloading to produce a load that will perform just like what you get in a "normal gun", in your slightly weird critter .

That's my personal opinion, anyhow.

 

[DeltaElite]

I have owned both guns, both were alot of fun.
Cor-bon loads a 200gr in 45 Colt at 1100fps, probably about 950 out of the ported snubby.
Unfortunately 44 Special loads are much lighter, my 200gr Gold Dots go about 850fps, probably about 750fps in the ported snubby.
I would choose the 45 Colt.