I expect to be stoned-AR/AK
- Thread starter jim in Anchorage
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sarduy
Member
I wonder what are you going to cook with that electric oven...fish? i'm ok with fish but but it's good to have 30 rounds of rock-n-roll to go birds/hog/deer/lions/panthers/tigers/bear/mule/horse/cow/sheep/rabbits... hunting(i'll eat anything that moves). because if SHTF happen i dont think the food in the near supermarkets will last long (1-2 days max) then you have to start hunting on your own for you and/or family, untill you run out of ammo, then you start to reload until you run out of primers/powder....
then and only then, these are the only tool that will keep you alive.
Bow
Knife/Machete
rope
axe
and as much Pain-killer you can find.
jim in Anchorage
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This is a epic thread. Are you already trying the pain killers? Why do I need 30 rounds to kill game?[please don't think I am some anti troll here] Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?
jim in Anchorage
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So opinions are out? I never proposed banning any thing-I asked a question.
*Personal Attack Removed
-Mgmt.
*Personal Attack Removed
-Mgmt.
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Fail.
Sorry, but that argument is getting old. Besides, any AR hunter is not going to go out with a milspec rifle mowing down the treeline. Look at a hunting AR sometime and you will see that it fits the purpose of sporting.
They were holding their value BEFORE Obama even came into the picture. Like, back when Yugoslavian M70 AKs were still under $420 before.
I remember $369.99 WASRs selling used for $300. A Colt AR that ran for $1200 wouldn't sell for less than $900 regardless of how old it was.
Yet I'll see hunting rifles and shotguns losing as much as a third or even close to half their value.
although .22 is on the cheap and plenty, I would not trust it for shooting anything bigger than rabbit.
a .223 doesn't have to be used for only varmint hunting, unless of course you believe that civilian firearms are only meant for acquiring tasty animal flesh and not for much, if any, thing else.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The bolt-action "fad" lasted over 80 years, and bolt guns still hold their value. It will be the same for more modern designs.
If you're hunting with an AR, you're probably using a hunting-caliber upper and a 5-round hunting magazine.
Sure, if you own a bolt-action and like to use it for hunting, no problem! But an AR in a suitable hunting caliber is no less suitable for hunting than a bolt gun, and hunting with an AK and hunting magazine is no different from hunting with a Winchester 94 in .30-30.
Reid73: LOL That's about the size of it.
I have an AR, an SKS, a .22LR AR, a Mini-14.
In a SHTF situation, I'm not sure if I'd grab any of them.
Nobody thinks about what SHTF means. It means no Wal Mart to go buy some more CLP. It means no store to get some ammo (okay, the S has already HTF in that way).
A semiauto loses a lot of its appeal when you won't want to take a shot you don't absolutely have to.
So why would I consider ditching these guns if the SHTF?
AR: Why haul around a gun that doesn't work when dry or dirty, when it's going to get dry and dirty?
SKS: Same size, weight and utility, and I can have a longer-range rifle, good for hunting, and/or getting the bad guy before he gets to me in the rare instance that's an issue. If the SHTF, there are no hospitals, either. A firefight is the LAST thing you want to get into. WRT hunting, if everyone's hunting for food, you'd better have something that will shoot a good distance, because you're not getting any closer to an animal than 300 yards.
.22LR AR: That's a toy, obviously. For small game hunting, there are better rifles. Lots of them, and all cheaper than this admittedly fun, but frivolous rifle.
Mini-14: Of all the guns above, it's the only one I'd really think is worth grabbing (it's light, sleek and compact, stainless, reliable as hell, and doesn't quit when dry or dirty). But what good is a prairie dog round in a rifle that won't shoot tighter groups than a Mini-14?
I can really see the argument for an M1A as a SHTF rifle (and some arguments against it). But all of the above guns have some serious flaws for serious SHTF.
The AR might be good for taking a few of them with you if there's a hostile military takeover of the country, but that's about it. It's a rifle designed for use by GROUPS of soldiers, not a lone survivalist. It's not worthless, obviously, but I don't think it's ideal.
That said, it does make a great competition rifle, a decent varmint gun, a fun target rifle, etc.
I have an AR, an SKS, a .22LR AR, a Mini-14.
In a SHTF situation, I'm not sure if I'd grab any of them.
Nobody thinks about what SHTF means. It means no Wal Mart to go buy some more CLP. It means no store to get some ammo (okay, the S has already HTF in that way).
A semiauto loses a lot of its appeal when you won't want to take a shot you don't absolutely have to.
So why would I consider ditching these guns if the SHTF?
AR: Why haul around a gun that doesn't work when dry or dirty, when it's going to get dry and dirty?
SKS: Same size, weight and utility, and I can have a longer-range rifle, good for hunting, and/or getting the bad guy before he gets to me in the rare instance that's an issue. If the SHTF, there are no hospitals, either. A firefight is the LAST thing you want to get into. WRT hunting, if everyone's hunting for food, you'd better have something that will shoot a good distance, because you're not getting any closer to an animal than 300 yards.
.22LR AR: That's a toy, obviously. For small game hunting, there are better rifles. Lots of them, and all cheaper than this admittedly fun, but frivolous rifle.
Mini-14: Of all the guns above, it's the only one I'd really think is worth grabbing (it's light, sleek and compact, stainless, reliable as hell, and doesn't quit when dry or dirty). But what good is a prairie dog round in a rifle that won't shoot tighter groups than a Mini-14?
I can really see the argument for an M1A as a SHTF rifle (and some arguments against it). But all of the above guns have some serious flaws for serious SHTF.
The AR might be good for taking a few of them with you if there's a hostile military takeover of the country, but that's about it. It's a rifle designed for use by GROUPS of soldiers, not a lone survivalist. It's not worthless, obviously, but I don't think it's ideal.
That said, it does make a great competition rifle, a decent varmint gun, a fun target rifle, etc.
jackdanson
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Is 600 yards short range?
Frankly I don't give a darn. I own AR's because they are practical for combat and the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting or punching paper. I use it as my "militia rifle". And NO I don't actually think I will ever have to use it in that capacity(at least in my lifetime) but as a society we have the responsibility to assure our freedom by maintaining our own defense.
spikehunter
Member
may be off topic
what kind of accuracy could i expect from a cheap ak (wasr or saiga)? good enough to deer hunt with?
what kind of accuracy could i expect from a cheap ak (wasr or saiga)? good enough to deer hunt with?
SaMx
Member
splitting guns into arbitrary groups is silly. ARs and AKs aren't some special type of rifle, they're just autoloading rifles.
People buy AR-15s because they tend to be very lightweight and accurate. Most shoot ammo that is relatively cheap and has very low recoil, but lots of more powerful calibers are available, and you can switch calibers and configurations very quickly and easily.
People buy AKs because they are very reliable, durable, and tend to be pretty affordable.
People buy AR-15s because they tend to be very lightweight and accurate. Most shoot ammo that is relatively cheap and has very low recoil, but lots of more powerful calibers are available, and you can switch calibers and configurations very quickly and easily.
People buy AKs because they are very reliable, durable, and tend to be pretty affordable.
Who's stopping you? If you don't want to hunt with or even use an AR, AK, FAL, M1A or any other gas operated semi auto then don't. I am a huge fan of bolt guns, I own more bolts than semi autos, but if I want to hunt with my FAL I will put a 5 round mag in and go hunt. It is my choice.
The only person that seem unable to accept that other people have differing opinions and that it is ok for them to differ is you.
jackdanson
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More like "HOLOCAUST". If every Jew had a battle rifle and a willingness to fight it never would have happened. I could list 20 other instances where governments killed thousands, or even millions, of there own people.
But yeah, it's all just fantasy.
stchman
Member
An AR is actually a fairly advanced rifle.
As far as an AK-47, they were made for uneducated peasants to operate and clean.
I consider AK-47s to be cheap junk rifles and don't know why anyone would pay $600 or more for one when they should be about $150 tops.
With that said I own a Mosin Nagant, but I only paid $115 for it.
As far as an AK-47, they were made for uneducated peasants to operate and clean.
I consider AK-47s to be cheap junk rifles and don't know why anyone would pay $600 or more for one when they should be about $150 tops.
With that said I own a Mosin Nagant, but I only paid $115 for it.
jackdanson
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They would be substantially cheaper, but you can't import a complete rifle that isn't built for "sporting" purposes. Building or modifying anything in-country means it costs more.
sarduy
Member
what i meant for pain-killer is some kind of pill that reduces pain, i dont want to hit my head and not have something like tylenol or advil for the headache.
you don't need 30 rounds to kill a game... but if i have to pick in a .223 bolt action or semi 30 rounds gun...i go with the 30 round one, because it would be funny to see you hunting a deer...and right after you take your shot a damn bear pop out of the bushes...
PLUS... remember you're not alone and in a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI people WILL try to steal your food, supply, gun... you really want to use a bolt action against 5 people armed with semi or full auto? i dont.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Reid73 said:
I sometimes forget that not everyone understands the breakdown in modern competitive shooting. My bad. Ok, basically, Multigun/3 Gun is broken down into divisions meant to appeal to various kinds of shooters. Roughly speaking (divisions will vary from region to region) they break down as follows:
- Tactical Iron Sight Division: .223 rifle, 12 ga. semi-auto tube-fed shotgun, semi-auto handgun in 9mm or .40 S&W. All guns must have iron sights, optical sights are not allowed.
- Tactical or Limited Division. Same as above, but the competitor is allowed to have a scope on his or her rifle.
- Open Division. This division is the F1 racing of competitive multigun shooting. There are almost no limits on the firearms. The rifles will often have multiple optical sights (magnified and dot). There are no magazine capacity limitations, so Beta C magazines are common. The shotgun has no limitations, and will have a red dot sight on it, as well as a setup allowing for very quick reloads, either via the use of TekLoaders or increasingly, magazine-fed shotguns like the Saiga. Pistols have almost no limitations as to capacity, and will have large compensators and a red dot sight.
- He-Man/Heavy Metal Division. This is where the old-school shooters play. Rifles must be chambered for at least .30 caliber (almost always .308), pistols must be chambered in a caliber that is no smaller than .40, and shotguns must be manually-operated.
My comment about "He-Man" division was not meant to be a personal statement of masculinity. That name is one of the commonly accepted designations for those wishing to shoot something other than a .223 AR, 9mm pistol, and semi-auto shotgun. By including this division, the competitor does not have to be concerned with the competitive edge he loses to the guys shooting firearms that have less recoil/higher capacity/faster firing rates. That said, there is a level of good-natured ribbing between the people shooting He-Man Division and those shooting in the Tactical divisions.
If the .223 WSSM does what you need it to do, then by all means that's what you should shoot. However, your initial post in this thread and some of your posts after that seem to show a general ignorance about the AR/AK platforms both with regard to price as well as the various applications for which they are well suited. Shooting your .223 WSSM rifle in a Service Rifle Match or Multigun competition would put you at a competitive disadvantage, just as I would be at a disadvantage if I were to attempt to take an elk or moose with an AR chambered in .223.
The difference between us seems to be that your perception of the AR is that of an overpriced toy that only Walter Mitty types would wish to own, with no understanding of other forms of shooting that are extremely well-suited to platforms such as the AR15.
Please, feel free to post a link or quote to anyone else in this thread who has claimed the need to spray and pray for hunting?
Likewise, I don't think anyone here is telling you to ditch your bolt guns. If bolt-action rifles do what you need them to do and appeal to you personally, then by all means, that's what you should shoot. But your initial posts and some since then have shown a lack of understanding of just how useful the AR platform is.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
If a gun does what YOU want it to do, it's as good as another fella's gun that does what HE wants it to do.
The converse holds true, as well...
The converse holds true, as well...
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
A problem arises, however, when you willfully fail to understand why someone else's choice might be the right thing for them, even if it's not the right thing for you.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
4 MOA, perhaps a little better, assuming decent ammunition. The main limitation is the fact that, like .30-30, 7.62x39mm is a relatively low velocity cartridge and loses what velocity it has fairly rapidly, so that it loses the ability to humanely kill a deer around 125 yards or so. Around here (pine woods of eastern NC), where a lot of shots on deer will be 50-100 yards, an AK would be fine. If you're looking at 100-200 yard shots, an AR in 6.8mm Remington or .30 RAR would be a better choice, though.
Optics do help as well, not only with shot placement but with shot precision; the AK is an easy rifle to shoot badly due to the short sight radius. But it is not nearly as inherently inaccurate as some of its detractors make it out to be.
No, they weren't. That's a chest-beating Western myth. The New Soviet Man was a lot poorer than his Western counterpart, but uneducated he was not, and the USSR was on average more urban than 1950's America.
Then it is clear you have not had much quality experience with them. An AK is functionally identical to a Ruger Mini Thirty and more durable; what's MSRP on a Mini Thirty?
DMK
Member
Let's see. Colt was selling AR-15s to civilians starting in the mid-60s at least. They continued to sell them throughout the 70s and 80s. They sold so well that new companies started to produce them, such as DPMS and Bushmaster. ARs sales were strong both during and after the AWB in '94-2004. Today, more and companies make them every year it seems including mainstream "hunting rifle" firms like Ruger and Remington.
Yea, ARs are a fad just like the Internet and cell phones.
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Uncle Mike
Member
Someone, (not just the last poster), needs to get a life... what kind of degradation of society are you mall ninjas dreaming about...? WAY too much TV watching... guys!
The U.S. is going to let its lands be invaded...not! We Do have the baddest, kick ass military in the world... they're gonna need mall ninja civie help...right!
Oh, I know... we are going to get into a brawl with our own military... that's a good one... even if we did, do you think for one nano second that YOU are going to be able to do anything about it...?
The first shot that rings out would probably be met with some kind of mountain leveling munitions from an air assault. Pretty boy mall ninja and his souped up super sniper or the black clad AK/AR toting killem'all guy will more than likely be a nice neat pile of smoldering ashes beside the warped and chard remains of his $2000 super assaulter.
How's that...?
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