I submit the Enfield is the Ultimate SHTF rifle!

[Dave Markowitz]

Case head separations

I just remembered this point in favor of the Lee-Enfields -- the excellent way they handle gas escaping from a cracked or broken case. You can have a complete case head separation in a L-E and not know it until you open the bolt. In contrast, you'll get gas back in your face if you experience the same thing in a Mosin.

 

[Wildalaska]

The M1 passed the test of two years of trench warfare that characterized most of the Korean war -- under harsher conditions than Passchendaele

Pshaw! Read some accounts of the Chosin resevoir!

It functioned well in the worst jungles in the world -- the triple canopy of Viet Nam

Dont think that the Tommies packin Enfileds in Malaysia and Burma and New Guinea would characterize RVN as "the worst"

The two-piece stock creates bedding issues.

So bed it...my JC is bedded...

The rimmed cartridge must be carefully loaded in the stripper clips

Thats the purpose of clips...to prevent poor loading in the heat of battel...all my SHTF ammo is on clips

What is the advantage over, say, an AR10, or an FN-FAL?

Weight, ergonomics, battel proven.....

Why favor the No. IV mk 1 over the No.1 Mk. III?

Better sights.....


WildaintthismorefunthanpoliticsAlaska

 

[greg531mi]

Most 303's have sewer pipe for bores. Too many people shoot surplus ammo, and then don't clean the bores. Now, I do have a 308 Enfield and a couple of 308 Mausers, with great bores. Why? 308 was never made with corrosive ammo. Went to the local gun store today, had a Century 308, converted to Mark 5, with a bore that you could eat on, next to it was a couple of orginal 303 Mark 5's with bores of sewer pipe.
Also, with 308, you don't have to carry two calibers of rifle ammo, and just face it, 303 surplus ammo is about gone! Also, 303 don't fit in my HK's!!!
303 is a caliber of the past, fading into the sunset, like the 8mm Mauser, and a host of other calibers not produced today in new guns.
If you do make one a SHTF gun, make sure you have enough 303 stashed!!!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
--------------------------------
Pshaw! Read some accounts of the Chosin resevoir!
--------------------------------

I know people who were there. And in '80 and '81 I was Deputy Operations Officer of the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. I know Korean officers who were there, too.

Weapons failures fall into two categories -- systemic flaws and lack of maintenance. Under severe conditions -- very cold weather, or very muddy conditions, perfectly good weapons may fail until the troops learn to care for them.

Quote:
--------------------------------------
Dont think that the Tommies packin Enfileds in Malaysia and Burma and New Guinea would characterize RVN as "the worst"
--------------------------------------

I once was trained by a Captain who had been a corporal with Merrill's Marauders -- Buster Skelton was his name. He had a very high opinion of the M1 rifle

I had the honor of serving with Australians in Viet Nam, many of whom had been in New Guinea (they train there) and they seemed to think the Viet Nam jungle was about as bad as anything they'd ever seen.

I spent a year in Singapore, training the Singapore Army, and that's the same jungle as Malaysia (only separated from it by the Straits of Lahore.) I conducted training exercises in Borneo -- which in my humble opinion is worse than the jungle in Malaysia and Singapore.

I'll go with Vietnamese triple canopy jungle in the monsoon, and defy anyone to find worse.

 

[rbernie]

Now, it's true that the SMLE is a REALLY fast bolt-action, with its cock-upon-closing feature.

Ya know, I've heard this said a million times and I just don't get it. The cock-on-close feature is the ONLY thing that I literally HATE about the Enfield. It's WRONG. It takes so much force to close and turn the bolt that I can't maintain a good cheekweld and target picture while I work the bolt. It slows me down to no end. (And yes - I have this same issue with my 95 Mauser.)

So what's the secret method for working the bolt that I've been missing? Why am I the only one that doesn't get this?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There are basically three ways to work a bolt action (I know, there are some more specialized ways, but they aren't at issue here.)

The first is thumb-and-forefinger -- just grab the bolt handle the natural way and lift up, pull back, push forward and push down. This is the method most people use.

The second is the "cupping" technique. With this technique, you turn the palm of the right hand toward your face, and lift the bolt with the cupped palm, sweeping it back. At the end of the stroke, you reverse the hand and push the bolt forward and down vigorously. This is the best way to work stiff military bolts, especially cock-on-closing bolts.

The third way is for VERY smooth actions -- you position your hand flat against the stock -- thumb pointing up, fingers forward, and rock the hand backward and forward. Very fast with the right gun -- such as a 50-year old Model 70 Palma Match rifle.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

It takes so much force to close and turn the bolt that I can't maintain a good cheekweld and target picture while I work the bolt.

WHereas on the mauser and mosin, it takes so much force to lift the bolt that i can't keep any kind of cheek weld.

 

[Cosmoline]

Vern's made a good point there that's rarely explored enough. The third method listed is very similar to the method I once saw illustrated with one of the old straight-bolt Swedes. It allowed for extremely rapid fire.

With my Mosin I use the palm and kind of slap it open, gripping the knob on the back stroke if I want to get the bras to fly real high and impress people. I re-engage it with just my thumb. I've always had a tough time with Enfield bolts because I find myself gripping the knob with my fingers for the full stroke. I'm irritated because the forward stroke is the hard one and I'm used to it being the easy one.

 

[rbernie]

I normally will pry the bolt away from the stock (rotating it counterclockwise) with my right forefinger, bring it back with my cupped hand, rotate my hand around it as I reach the end of the bolt travel and push it forward with the meaty base of my right thumb, finally rotating it clockwise with my cupped fingers.

I guess that I don't notice the issues with cocking on opening because the rifle's already in recoil and my target view has already been interrupted. It's the forward-n-downward push at the end of the cock-on-close that just seems to come at the same time as when I'm reacquiring the target.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

First off, Id like to thank WilddistractionondebatenightAlaska for giving me a break from the headache of political threads and back onto more fun things like SHTF rifles.

I would agree that a good bolt action is definitely a good stick to reach for should trouble arise. It should be fast to operate, and to load, and be military in origin. The Enfield fulfills this scout role wonderfully. On these rifles there is less to go wrong. Possibly more importantly, it is much more politically correct and less likely to draw attention and get you into trouble with whatever law might be around.

Depending on where youre at, a bolt action might not be the ticket when trying to solve numerous problems at once, so backing it up (somewhere at home with quick access) with a good semi like an AK or FAL seems very prudent.

The ammo concerns with 303 are valid, and I dont think it would remain very plentiful if any long term problem occurred. Stocking up is a solution to this, but accidents/theft/etc could make a bad day worse. My pseudo-scout mosin is my stick of choice because of this. Its been adequately bubba'd up, with a lovely turned down bolt (angled, not straight down), scout scope, and chopped and recrowned barrel. Its now my favorite rifle, being fast to operate, easy to reload, and extremely well balanced. On top of this, the 7.62x54 round should prove to be very common even in rough times. The argument that caliber X has more velocity/energy than caliber Z doesnt really hold water since at any practical distance, any cartridge above the 303/308 power level will do just fine.

To expand on a previous point, I think its a dangerous notion to depend on an EBR as your go-to SHTF piece. If the law is going crazy snatching up anything that looks like trouble and youre in the warpath, your piece will be gone. I think the thousand bucks spent on the semi could be spent on more ammo to practice properly working the bolt-action. But honestly, all these thoughts are worth what you paid for em.

-SpookylovestheseSHTFthreadsPistolero

 

[Heavy Barrel]

Yeah,but it still is one ugly piece.

 

[goon]

While it is true that the Mosin Nagant is a little more powerful than the .303, for all practical purposes, they do the same thing.

I have an M-39 and and SMLE. Of the two, I would take the M-39, but only because for me, it is that "one rifle". I have found my dream rifle, and it is a 60 year old Finn. It is deadly accurate, simple, durable, and tough. Mine also happens to be quite beautiful, with just enough meat on the rear end. The "meat" makes the recoil so soft that you can shoot it all day and go home feeling great.

Having said that, the SMLE is one hell of rifle. It will lay some smack on you fast and hard. The action on an Enfield is as quick as you will find on any turnbolt, and with its 10 round mag and strippers, it is fast. The cock on close works just fine when you work the bolt hard and fast like it was made to be worked. If you imagine that there are angry Germans shooting back at you, it helps.

Both will reach out much farther than I have any business shooting and will make a mess of whatever they hit when they get there. I will agree that while I can find .303 within about 20 minutes, I can order 7.62x54 noncorrosive ammo cheaper. I can get 60 rounds of Wolf 7.62x54 locally for what I buy 20 rounds of .303 for. I can get 500 rounds for my Mosin Nagant for $100. It is true that you can't compare Wolf to Winchester, but both go bang and price is a factor. I would rather I don't know of any deal on .303 that will get me that much ammo for that price.
Unfortunately, I haven't shot my SMLE in a couple years because of the price of ammo for it, but I am going to use it to hunt this year.
I am planning to start handloading for both as well, so hopefully price won't be as much of a factor.

 

[Jaeger]

What, no advocates of the Carcano?

 

[Gewehr98]

Nope, no Carcano endorsement as a SHTF gun.

Although, as witnessed by the events at Dealey Plaza nearly 41 years ago, it has the makings of a damned fine varmint rifle!

 

[jame]

Whoa.

Now that was a little cold.

 

[Wildalaska]

Dude now that is soooooooooooooooooooooo rude and totally againts everything this Board stands for!



















Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha

WildgototloveagoodonelinerAlaska

 

[bullfrog99]

I think you are close on all counts except the magaziens. There is nothing quick about magazine changes with the Enfield no4 series. Best sights on any issue combat gun period in my opinion though.

 

[BruceB]

The Lee Enfield rifles were not intended to be used with several magazines, and loose (out of the rifle) Enfield mags do not hold cartridges very securely.

The rifle was intended to be loaded with chargers ("strippers", on this side of the pond) and the training in charger-loading the rifle was extensive and intense. I know, because the Canadian Army trained me on the #4 Mk 1.

The issue of the rimmed cartridge was simply not a problem AT ALL in the military. Soldiers knew how to load both the chargers and the rifle, and combat-packed ammunition was supplied already-loaded in cloth bandoliers, two pre-loaded chargers per pocket. Of course, it still made sense to actually CHECK to ensure that each charger was properly loaded.

The training manual for our #4 Rifles stated very explicitly (should be just about an exact quote): "When fewer than five rounds remain in the magazine, the magazine shall immediately be replenished with an additional charger of five rounds." Here's where the sustained-firepower of the Lee Enfields was maintained.

Note too, that many later-issue #4 and #5 rifles have their single magazine serial-numbered to match the rifle.

I'd be mighty happy to use a #4 or #5 as my SHTF rifle. I saved my life with a #5 one morning, I believe, and it was under EXTREME pressure and close-range, high-speed shooting....about two feet. Truly, the #4-5 is a tried-and-trusted companion to me.

 

[Sunray]

Wildalaska, I agree with you except for one thing. Ammo availability. It's hard to beat the 100% reliability of a No. 4, but .303 Brit ammo isn't common everywhere. Especially Stateside. .30-06 and .308, on the other hand, is readily available anywhere. So is 12 ga shotgun ammo.
bullfrog99, one doesn't change mags with a No 4 or a No 1 MkIII. If you don't have stripper clips, you just fill the mag while it's in the rifle with loose rounds.
Enfields just aren't the same as a regular mag fed rifles. It's no big deal to load an Enfield mag while said mag is in the rifle. Trust me. The Brits designed this rifle for fighting. The standard way to load them was with 5 round stripper clips, not by changing mags.Target shooting was not a consideration. Target shooting was nothing more than training.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I beg to differon the magazine change speed. I've practiced a lot, and it's about as fast as an m-14 magazine change.

 

[Wildalaska]

Ammo ammo ammo.........

What you guys mean is CHEAP ammo............

Sorry I can go into Wal Mart and buy 303 up here...so the prepared survivior buys 2000 rounds of win white box, spends some time clipping it up, gettin some bandoliers, etc...

Isnt that what prep is about?

Nope no one has yet to defeat the proposition..........

The Enfield is the ultimate SHTF rifle


WildihavespokenAlaska

 

[The_Antibubba]

Enfield good and Mosin cheap?

So is the Enfield action strong enough to be rechambered for 7.62 Russian? The cartridges are very close, and Mosin ammo is dirt cheap right now-a couple of spamski cans and you are set. And corrosive ammo won't corrosode if you clean your rifle after shooting.

 

[Gabe]

British Army did convert some sniper variants to fire 7.62Nato.

 

[Badger Arms]

What's all this talk about the .308? The reason one uses the .303 is because it's a tapered case with a HUGE rim and runs at a decent, moderate pressure. The 7.62x51 is a nearly straight case that runs at higher pressures to attain its velocity. the .303 is not as sensative to type of powder and can be EXTRACTED reliably from firearms which fire said cartridge.

Now, I won't say it's the ultimate. I think the Mosin Nagant is a decent number myslef. I prefer a gun longer than the M44 and M38 carbines, however. The MN is not sensative to rimlock either. Being a straight magazine with a cartridge interrupter, I can't imagine a more reliable feed system. Extraction is about as positive as positive can get. The sights are more simple on the MN and about as clear as anything to see and operate. The MN has a shorter standard stock (I have kids).

 

[rbernie]

What's all this talk about the .308?

In a SHTF situation, most folks will have far more ready access to 308 than 303, especially those of us that aren't particularly close to the Canadian border.

My local WallyWorld carries a total of four boxes of 303 and about four hundred boxes of 308. When I run out of what 303 I have stockpiled, I'm going to have to rely upon the local supply chain, and that effectively makes the Mk4No1 an albatross.

Which is why I also have a Mauser 308, and may just pick up a Enfield 2A.