I Tried the 9mm and Liked It...Feeling Guilty :)

[Geno]

The instructor for our Advanced Tactical Shooting course has had 3 autoload pistols fail, and 3 revolvers fail in his career. He argues that both platforms are equally liable to failures. That handguns can and will eventually fail, is why we should carry at least 1 back-up. He carries up to 5 pistols (a primary, a back-up, and up to 3 bugs).

Geno

 

[duns]

The instructor for our Advanced Tactical Shooting course has had 3 autoload pistols fail, and 3 revolvers fail in his career. He argues that both platforms are equally liable to failures.

Both can fail but surely no one would argue that it is equally likely on a per shot basis?

That handguns can and will eventually fail, is why we should carry at least 1 back-up.

I agree with that.

He carries up to 5 pistols (a primary, a back-up, and up to 3 bugs).

That's over the top. No harm done if he can carry them, but the chances of two weapons of different designs failing in the same gun fight is low enough for me especially if one of them is a revolver.

 

[Geno]

duns:

No doubt over the top! This particular instructor is hard-core to the max! I think he detailed that he was carrying the following:

G17 (primary)
G19 (back-up)
P3AT (right ankle)
P3AT (left ankle)
.22 Mag Mini-revolver (pocket)

By the way, I have to correct myself here. The target was 7 yards! Not 10 yards. See why I started writing the details on the targets?!

Sorry for the error!

Geno

 

[NG VI]

There's a very good reason that those who use autos to seek and eliminate the bad guys also routinely, and frequently, practice malfunction drills.

Take 20 guys with semi's to the range on any given day and I'll bet that at least one of them will have at least one malfunction when shooting, be it ammo related, magazine related, weapon related, or user related.

Sounds pretty reliable to me. Who knows what the dumb bastard did to his pistol to get it to malfunction. Kind of like the horror stories about ARs being jammomatics, yet all through Basic, AIT, qualifications, and practice with the State Marksmanship Team a few times, plus the Bargain Bin CMMG I owned, I have only experienced a single malfunction, and I can't remember what it was, only that it took me about three seconds to clear it.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too young to be traumatized by faulty designs that plagued all the older members of THR, but modern pistols are generally pretty flawless, just different flavors of it.

 

[NG VI]

Oh and Geno, I read your post before I spotted the name on it, at first I was reading it and thinking, this guy is almost certainly exaggerating, three pairs of shots per second into a group like that, even at seven yards? Ridiculous.

I somehow don't think you are exaggerating at all. Strong work on that target.

 

[atomd]

He carries up to 5 pistols (a primary, a back-up, and up to 3 bugs).

Does he wear suspenders and a belt just in case? Sounds like a real character to me.

 

[stchman]

Considering that the 40S&W is about 10% more powerful than a 9mm the 9mm makes more sense.

If you really need more power than a 9mm step up to a .45ACP.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

What

I wonder what all these people are doing to there guns to where they have to be so concerned about them failing all the time? Perhaps it's a fear that no amount of pistols will solve. As far as automatic pistols, oops, I mean semi-automatic pistols (for the person who earlier was not sure which were being talked about) are concerned, if there made good, and cleaned atleast one fifth the suggested amount, I promise, you will be fine. It seems like it's when people attempt to make them better, they tend to start jamming and acting silly.

I also like to shoot revolvers. I was reminded this past weekend to what extent I enjoy shooting them. I was shooting reloaded 38's out of a six inch barreled .357 Taures. I also have equal confidence, if not more, that my Sig will protect my life, or the life of somebody in my party just as well as any revolver.

SEMI-automatic pistols, have less working parts than a revolver. They shoot faster, there much easier to carry, and used by the military. Something tells me there is a good reason, possibly several solid reasons that our military and police force converted to them. I like revolvers too.

I grew up around them, my dad told me automatics jammed, I believed him. Back in the first hundred years of massed produced ammo, those rounds were not yet subject to modern day quality contol. Thet might have caused autos to jam. I don't know. That was then this is now.

 

[NWCP]

I own numerous pistols in a variety of calibers. The 9mm is still my favorite range day pistol and often serves as my carry piece. I like both high capacity as well as single stack 9s. Besides shooting them well I find the price of ammo makes the 9mm that much more desirable. I still like my .40 and .45ACPs and practice with them monthly, but the 9mm is my go to gun for weekly range visits.

 

[duns]

I wonder what all these people are doing to there guns to where they have to be so concerned about them failing all the time? Perhaps it's a fear that no amount of pistols will solve. As far as automatic pistols, oops, I mean semi-automatic pistols (for the person who earlier was not sure which were being talked about) are concerned, if there made good, and cleaned atleast one fifth the suggested amount, I promise, you will be fine. It seems like it's when people attempt to make them better, they tend to start jamming and acting silly.

I also like to shoot revolvers. I was reminded this past weekend to what extent I enjoy shooting them. I was shooting reloaded 38's out of a six inch barreled .357 Taures. I also have equal confidence, if not more, that my Sig will protect my life, or the life of somebody in my party just as well as any revolver.

SEMI-automatic pistols, have less working parts than a revolver. They shoot faster, there much easier to carry, and used by the military. Something tells me there is a good reason, possibly several solid reasons that our military and police force converted to them. I like revolvers too.

I grew up around them, my dad told me automatics jammed, I believed him. Back in the first hundred years of massed produced ammo, those rounds were not yet subject to modern day quality contol. Thet might have caused autos to jam. I don't know. That was then this is now.

Hi JohnHenry,
I think your sarcastic remark regarding the difference between automatic and semi-automatic was aimed at me. I'm new to firearms but believe there is a distinction between automatic and semi-automatic. If people call them both "automatics" and nobody gets confused, I didn't know that.

You ask why people are fearful about their semi-automatic pistols failing and are more confident in their revolvers. Well, as I said I don't have much experience, but my Beretta 92FS had numerous failures to feed until it had about 140 rounds fired through it. So there is actual experience as a foundation for concern ("fear" is too emotive). Then, we can all look theoretically at the possible causes for failure to fire. A semi-auto has failure mechanisms that don't affect a revolver - magazine failures, limp wrist, ammo sensitivity, etc. You also indicate that a semi-auto needs to be reasonably clean to work and I think revolvers may be rather less sensitive to cleanliness.

You say that semi-autos have less working parts than a revolver. Please could you give an example as I find that surprising? But as I say I'm a newbie so I could well be wrong.

I wonder if you are forgetting how many little problems you had with your semi-auto at the range? Did you have to break it in before it became reliable? How about your revolvers - did they need the same breaking in or were they faultless from the start? Did you ever experience a revolver malfunction? What in your experience is the ratio of revolver malfunctions to semi-auto malfunctions? If you tell me, you've never had a failure from either, I won't believe you (unless you've hardly ever shot a gun).

Basically, your assertion that a semi-auto is as reliable as a revolver is just opinion unless you have some statistics or at least good armchair logic to back it up.

 

[CajunBass]

The one thing I hate about it... Takes too long to reload a magazine!

Somebody else has probably mentioned it, but yea, it takes a while to load those magazines, and the other down side is how quickly you can empty them. Man, a box of ammo don't last long when you're using 15 round mags.

 

[Geno]

Thanks NG VI.

For the past several months I have been working 90%+ with my G19C, and G17. Mostly, the G19C. I haven't carried by 1911s much at all. I had just had new Trijicon sights installed on this G19C, and wanted to assure that they weren't going to fly off...or if they did, to have it happen there. It wouldn't much matter as in point shooting, we usually apply tape over the sights (front and rear). I was more concerned that a screw might back-out and jam it up.

Every once in a while I get the fantasy going of buying a G17C with a 2.5 Lb, quick reset trigger! Stop me here, right?! Sheesh! What do I need another Glock for?! Regarding exaggerate, nope. I'm one of the few customers who Ray allows to shoot as rapidly as can be in controlled fashion. Last time "Owen" and I shot there, the worker walked in and said, "Oh, Geno! Okay...you guys can shoot as fast as you want!". My favorite to is load up 5, 33-round magazines, and shoot double-time to some hot-rockin' 1980s music...shooting to the beat. <<I know! I admit that I am slightly strange. Okay, pretty strange; well, maybe freaking weird!!>> We usually do warn the "next-door" lanes of shootists that we will be having a "blast-fest". "MikePGS" has gone to "Blast-Fest" with me too.

Maybe I should rent a G17C today. You know, just for fun of course...not to purchase it.

Geno

 

[lilidiot]

Considering that the 40S&W is about 10% more powerful than a 9mm the 9mm makes more sense.

If you really need more power than a 9mm step up to a .45ACP.

What? When did the .40 become 10% more powerful than the 9 mm. They yielded about the same results in the box of truth bullet penetration and expansion tests.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Take a look for yourself please. When did the .45 become more powerful? It is slower with a lousy trajectory. A 9x17 is faster and straighter.

 

[SOUTHPAW]

My 1911 in .45ACP is my most accurate pistol. My xDm 9mm is almost as accurate and is the most reliable of my pistols...

 

[lilidiot]

If you really want to see accuracy try the Kel-Tec SUB-2000 9x19 Luger Carbine that has a 16 inch barrel. How about 2 inch groups at 100 yards!

 

[SOUTHPAW]

If you really want to see accuracy try the Kel-Tec SUB-2000 9x19 Luger Carbine that has a 16 inch barrel. How about 2 inch groups at 100 yards!

Yeah I bet, but you can't compare long guns to pistols... Apples and oranges!

 

[rockhound758]

EasyG:

As I said in my original post, I've always been a .4x guy...been shooting my full house .44 mag reloads for 20+ years, so I'm not stranger to recoil and it doesn't bother me. But the 9 did intrigue me, and for concealed carry, with good ammo, I think it's a solid choice. As for practice ammo, a store here in Columbus has tons of 124g for $11 a box...maybe not QUITE as low as Wally World but not bad.

 

[Justin]

Considering that the 40S&W is about 10% more powerful than a 9mm the 9mm makes more sense.

If you really need more power than a 9mm step up to a .45ACP.

[Citation Needed]

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Well...

Hello Duns,

Thank you for taking the time to acknowledge me. I am new to THR, and not yet effective working it. I hope this goes through.

My remark about semi-autos versus autos was sacrcastic. I apoligize for that. I am a history major in school. I often put up with younger cocky people acting as if they don't know what I am talking about if I do not pronounce a word the way they think I should. I assumed you were correcting people as an attempt to one up them. I see now I was wrong.

As far as revolvers having more parts than automatics. I always assumed autos had more. I have seen revolvers taken completly apart on some occasions. They look about like a clock. One night I was bored and looked it up. I don't remember where. The diagram did show a revolver having way more parts. They are small and within the cocking assembly, the trigger housing, and the rotating of the cylinder.

I certainly have had guns jam. My guns that mean the most to me, like guns I shot first as a kid, and used to hunt, still jam. I have a .22 remighton model 556 that jams if firing shorts. I had a browing auto-5 that didn't like certain ammo. I used these for hunting animals, not people that could kill me. I bet if I focused on them, and was concerned enough to correct it, I could get them to stop jamming.

I just bought a Tokerev that jams often, I blame it on poor ammo and cosmoline. Im going to clean it up, after it fires a thousand rounds in a row without a malfunction I will consider it kind of safe. After I put several thousand more rounds through it, I will know it is safe. I have a sig model 229 that has never jammed one time. I have put thousands of rounds through it. I keep it cleaner than I need to. My point is this.

Any Gun will jam. However if there clean and you shoot it thousands of times without it jamming, I would feel safe trusting my life to it. Is it more reliable than a revolver? I don't know. Some of my revolvers I have shot so many times do seem to jam more. I don't clean them as often, and shoot cheap ammo through them because I dont think of them as conceal and carry guns. Its not something I concern myself with. If I was willing to wear a huge coat all the time, I would clean them very well, shoot them several hundred times, spend a bunch of money on quality ammo, if I had no problems after that I would feel safe trusting it.

I know several people, non gun people, who carry tiny revolvers claiming they are safer than autos. A tenth of one percent safer, OR NOT, isnt a huge concern of mine. These same people who can barely hit a target, while relaxing amongst friends at a range, with one of those tiny little double action only things, for some reason think there safe cause they have a revolver not an auto. I honestly don't think you can claim one is more likely to jam than another. I think there is more to consider. I think its needs to be a good enough Gun to not jam if properly maintained and operated, while able to be carried, and shot good enough to save somebodies life. I like those berretas. I've never owned one, but shot some of my buddies a couple of times. Ive herd they can have magizine proublems. Im sure if you find the right magizine that works, the gun will be reliable enough to trust your life to. Thanks for reading this. Have fun and be safe shooting.

 

[LHshot]

FYI, that xdm in 9mm is a beaut, too

 

[SOUTHPAW]

FYI, that xdm in 9mm is a beaut, too

I love mine!

 

[Taurus_9mm]

I try to spread the love equally between the 9mm, 40S&W and 45 ACP.