I don't think anyone said Africans were inferior or incapable. But why is it we define capability by our standards. They are not us. If tribal government and society is what they prefer I'd say it's equally racist for us to demand they do it our way as it is to say they aren't smart enough. Our forms of governance aren't exactly panning out to be the cure-all for the human race, either.
I used to sort of like Nelson Mandela...
- Thread starter Harold Mayo
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Golly, Malone.....
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"I can't accept what I hear coming from a lot of folks (not pp) here that the mass of black Africans are just fundamentally inferior humans. That they are somehow incapable of governing themselves. That it is just the white man's burden to govern and care for poor benighted Sambo. If that's not what's being said, I apologize, but that's what it sounds like to me."
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I don't believe I said anything even remotely resembling that
This 'race-card' playing is as tiresome (and unhelpful) from the left as it is from the right
Mandela is not a 'hero' to me...just a tired old ideologue whose time is up. We should note what pp said about the ANC trying to limit the power of 'middle-class' contenders from the Cape...Mbeki may be an elected successor to Mandela, but if the elections are rigged...and this is where the ANC will fail the people and the nation
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"I can't accept what I hear coming from a lot of folks (not pp) here that the mass of black Africans are just fundamentally inferior humans. That they are somehow incapable of governing themselves. That it is just the white man's burden to govern and care for poor benighted Sambo. If that's not what's being said, I apologize, but that's what it sounds like to me."
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I don't believe I said anything even remotely resembling that
This 'race-card' playing is as tiresome (and unhelpful) from the left as it is from the right
Mandela is not a 'hero' to me...just a tired old ideologue whose time is up. We should note what pp said about the ANC trying to limit the power of 'middle-class' contenders from the Cape...Mbeki may be an elected successor to Mandela, but if the elections are rigged...and this is where the ANC will fail the people and the nation
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South Africa has many different regions. Deserts that are sand, to dense Jungles. It's a breathtaking country. Most of it though, is Savannah Grassland
One thing I do want to bring up to point out to ML
The Blacks, as you should be aware, represent many different ethnic groups. There are Xhosa, Sotho, Zulu, etc. At the time that the Dutch landed at the cape(1600's), there were only Hottentot and Bushman living there. The Dutch, as they escaped the British, ran into the Bantu tribes midway up the country, and ran into the Zulu at the Borders of what used to be Natal. The Bantu tribes had been moving south, while the whites moved north. It is then not alltogether clear that the Blacks owned that land first (There are very few Hottentots and Bushman left). This historical fact is frequently glossed over.
However, it does make little difference to me because all the ethnicities will either sink or swim together, and dithering about historical injustices are a complete waste of time. And here I do not only talk Black and White. I mean Afrikaaner and Englishman, Xhosa and Zulu. They all have a historical axe to grind, and all have legitimate beefs. And in the end it may mean nothing.
pittspilot, thanks.
Any credence to Mitchner's Covenant? I found the book well-written & very interesting - aside from any historial blunders.
Just curious on your take?
Any credence to Mitchner's Covenant? I found the book well-written & very interesting - aside from any historial blunders.
Just curious on your take?
Malone, I don't see it as racist to question why so many of Africa's political problems exist. Most of their leaders were educated in western universities. So many African countries have a resource base that could easily allow prosperity.
At least read the Appendices of Michener's "Caribbean". He speaks of a meeting of the leadership of many of the Caribbean nations. The great majority of these leaders were black. They questioned among themselves this same question, as to why it's so difficult for the predominantly black nations to properly deal with self-rule. Personally, I don't have any honest answer, one in which I really believe...Certainly no simple answer.
Art
At least read the Appendices of Michener's "Caribbean". He speaks of a meeting of the leadership of many of the Caribbean nations. The great majority of these leaders were black. They questioned among themselves this same question, as to why it's so difficult for the predominantly black nations to properly deal with self-rule. Personally, I don't have any honest answer, one in which I really believe...Certainly no simple answer.
Art
Art,
My simplistic answer is that "they" (& this definition spins through so many of the human condition - not just the current topical "them") aren't looking to prosper, but to "get over."
Prospering requires a forethought of what will come, & effort to make that happen, while "getting over" merely requires the victim mindset to suck from those who already have.
Through that process, "leaders" will emerge to ensure its proper distribution.
Does Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson come to mind?
& thanks for the correct spelling of Jimmy's name.
My simplistic answer is that "they" (& this definition spins through so many of the human condition - not just the current topical "them") aren't looking to prosper, but to "get over."
Prospering requires a forethought of what will come, & effort to make that happen, while "getting over" merely requires the victim mindset to suck from those who already have.
Through that process, "leaders" will emerge to ensure its proper distribution.
Does Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson come to mind?
& thanks for the correct spelling of Jimmy's name.
I have read posts of amazing exactness as well as some exremely naive posts.
But this South African's opinion of the new government including Mandela is simply very low.
And you must judge Africa by African standards, and cannot compare it to the US south. And if you get to know Africa, you would realise that it is a sad and beautiful continent, but with no place for whites. 'Tis as simple as that.....
But this South African's opinion of the new government including Mandela is simply very low.
And you must judge Africa by African standards, and cannot compare it to the US south. And if you get to know Africa, you would realise that it is a sad and beautiful continent, but with no place for whites. 'Tis as simple as that.....
Jaco,
You probably know more about South African history than I do, so can you clarify some things for me?
When the whites got to SA in the 1600s the only people there were Hotentots, who were dwarf-like and numbered approx. 50,000, and all of whom were annihilated in short order. The whites then moved North for many decedas until they go to the present border where they encountered the Zulus. The Zulus were a nomadic tribe that had been moving South for some time. Over time the Zulus were brought in as a labor force, but were not intended to be citizens.
Is that not why the blacks in SA, who overwhelmingly are Zulus, were not given the right to vote?
Malone makes SA to be so horrific for black, far worse than the Hollywood depicted, pre-civil rights era South, so why is it that so many blacks in the Southern part of the continent are trying to hard to illegally immigrate to SA? Because it's better than the craphole countries they live in! All this nonsense about making SA to be an equivilant of Nazi Germany is a bunch of romantic theater for guilt-ridden Westerners who are looking for some type of cause to rally behind so they can feel good about themselves, of course with no one expecting them to actually do a damn thing about it.
You probably know more about South African history than I do, so can you clarify some things for me?
When the whites got to SA in the 1600s the only people there were Hotentots, who were dwarf-like and numbered approx. 50,000, and all of whom were annihilated in short order. The whites then moved North for many decedas until they go to the present border where they encountered the Zulus. The Zulus were a nomadic tribe that had been moving South for some time. Over time the Zulus were brought in as a labor force, but were not intended to be citizens.
Is that not why the blacks in SA, who overwhelmingly are Zulus, were not given the right to vote?
Malone makes SA to be so horrific for black, far worse than the Hollywood depicted, pre-civil rights era South, so why is it that so many blacks in the Southern part of the continent are trying to hard to illegally immigrate to SA? Because it's better than the craphole countries they live in! All this nonsense about making SA to be an equivilant of Nazi Germany is a bunch of romantic theater for guilt-ridden Westerners who are looking for some type of cause to rally behind so they can feel good about themselves, of course with no one expecting them to actually do a damn thing about it.
Harold Mayo:
Undermining? I already covered this. The UN should not have any say at all in our national affairs. And why should we listen to a goatherder from Ghana? He may be an educated leader in his own nation but he's still not very far removed from running around in a loincloth trying to gather in his nannies.
Sorry, but this kind of uninformed comment has no place in any kind of civil discussion. One of my best friends is from Ghana and is very proud that his country is the most stable, successful and free state in the whole of Africa.
Undermining? I already covered this. The UN should not have any say at all in our national affairs. And why should we listen to a goatherder from Ghana? He may be an educated leader in his own nation but he's still not very far removed from running around in a loincloth trying to gather in his nannies.
Sorry, but this kind of uninformed comment has no place in any kind of civil discussion. One of my best friends is from Ghana and is very proud that his country is the most stable, successful and free state in the whole of Africa.
Mandela needs to join up with Sen. Byrd and march together into the Atlantic Ocean. A worthless old communist and a worthless old racist. The world would be better off without them.
We deserve it, this kind of sick rhetoric , because we allow it. :banghead:
What has Bush done? Promise billions to aid in Africa. These nations should be kissing our ???.
Screw every nation that speaks this way about my country! Im tired of seeing my tax dollars lining the pockets of those who would spit on us.
What we need to do is pull out of the world. Stop being a global cop and let em at each other. Let the world and our enemies kill each other.
What has Bush done? Promise billions to aid in Africa.
These nations should be kissing our ???.Screw every nation that speaks this way about my country! Im tired of seeing my tax dollars lining the pockets of those who would spit on us.
What we need to do is pull out of the world. Stop being a global cop and let em at each other. Let the world and our enemies kill each other.
Technically, the ANC WAS a terrorist organization. Mandela is lucky he wasn't executed. He should be thankful that the SA government didn't have the balls to hang him and doubly thankful that the US helped get his sorry butt out of jail.
Oh yeah, before anyone bitches about Mandela being a revolutionary and a leader, what do you think would have happened to George W if he had been caught by the British?
Oh yeah, before anyone bitches about Mandela being a revolutionary and a leader, what do you think would have happened to George W if he had been caught by the British?
Oh yeah, before anyone bitches about Mandela being a revolutionary and a leader, what do you think would have happened to George W if he had been caught by the British?
Making a comparison between Washington and Mandela is like comparing chicken salad and chicken sh*t. Last time I checked Washington didn't blow up schools.
Making a comparison between Washington and Mandela is like comparing chicken salad and chicken sh*t. Last time I checked Washington didn't blow up schools.
Glock Glockler
SA history in a nutshell
- 1652 - whites arrive for colonization in Cape Town area, Western Cape
- At that stage the Western Cape is inhabited by Bushmen and Hottentot
- With the spread inland contact is made with the black or Bantu groups, firstly the South Nguni (Xhosa speaking). Afterwards the other Nguni tribes follow, namely the Zulu, Ndebele etc., and the Sotho and Venda groups.
- Series of wars between the Dutch/French/English/Sotho/Hottentot/Zulu/Xhosa/Mfengu follows over the next centuries.
- Anglo Boer War is around 1900, first use of concentration camps in modern war. British put Afrikaner women and children in concentration camps, starve them, feed them broken glass in bread, etc etc.
- WWI - Afrikaner violently anti-British because of Anglo Boer War atrocities.
- WWII- Afrikaners fight on the Allies sides
-1948 - Afrikaners take over government, and the British is finally kicked out. Beginning of "seperate development", the so called Apartheid.
-1950's- The hey days of communism, and communist insurgence starts all over Africa, including the ANC. In SA the bombings and killings start.
-1994 - Governement taken over by the pro communist ANC, and economical and social decline starts, together with rampant violent crime, Aids, and the start of the disamarment of the civil population, with no increase in police protection.
Was apartheid so bad? I don't know, each one experiences anything different. Apartheid is used now for an excuse to enrich the black elite, and to discriminate against whites. What is happening at this stage against whites is no different that happened against the blacks in the Apartheiod era, except more are killed now. And of course the whites have not started en masse to blow things up, go into public places shooting everyone in sight.
Comparing SA with Nazi Germany is nothing but highly naive, from someone who clearly never studied history.
The argument that land is actually the group's possesion who lands there first cannot unfortunately ever hold water. If that were the case there is supposed to be no Caucasians anywhere except Europe (which means, my friends, that most of you have to please leave the States as soon as possible), no blacks except in Africa, there is supposed to be no Chinese in Taiwan, no whites in Australia, half of the UK has to go back to Scandinavia, etc.
SA history in a nutshell
- 1652 - whites arrive for colonization in Cape Town area, Western Cape
- At that stage the Western Cape is inhabited by Bushmen and Hottentot
- With the spread inland contact is made with the black or Bantu groups, firstly the South Nguni (Xhosa speaking). Afterwards the other Nguni tribes follow, namely the Zulu, Ndebele etc., and the Sotho and Venda groups.
- Series of wars between the Dutch/French/English/Sotho/Hottentot/Zulu/Xhosa/Mfengu follows over the next centuries.
- Anglo Boer War is around 1900, first use of concentration camps in modern war. British put Afrikaner women and children in concentration camps, starve them, feed them broken glass in bread, etc etc.
- WWI - Afrikaner violently anti-British because of Anglo Boer War atrocities.
- WWII- Afrikaners fight on the Allies sides
-1948 - Afrikaners take over government, and the British is finally kicked out. Beginning of "seperate development", the so called Apartheid.
-1950's- The hey days of communism, and communist insurgence starts all over Africa, including the ANC. In SA the bombings and killings start.
-1994 - Governement taken over by the pro communist ANC, and economical and social decline starts, together with rampant violent crime, Aids, and the start of the disamarment of the civil population, with no increase in police protection.
Was apartheid so bad? I don't know, each one experiences anything different. Apartheid is used now for an excuse to enrich the black elite, and to discriminate against whites. What is happening at this stage against whites is no different that happened against the blacks in the Apartheiod era, except more are killed now. And of course the whites have not started en masse to blow things up, go into public places shooting everyone in sight.
Comparing SA with Nazi Germany is nothing but highly naive, from someone who clearly never studied history.
The argument that land is actually the group's possesion who lands there first cannot unfortunately ever hold water. If that were the case there is supposed to be no Caucasians anywhere except Europe (which means, my friends, that most of you have to please leave the States as soon as possible), no blacks except in Africa, there is supposed to be no Chinese in Taiwan, no whites in Australia, half of the UK has to go back to Scandinavia, etc.
Uuuuhhh . . . yeah, apartheid was so bad. Check the record of the T&C commission. I am sure we could both find a lot of examples of bad things done by bad people. State sponsored terrorism and torture are bad (even if things are not so great right now). It was a historical inevitability that it would happen - you try and keep ~95% of the country disenfranchised and and employed as a 'servant' population and you will ultimately have to resort to that sort of thing.
Sure, things might be worse for you and quite a few others, but it has only been 10 years and in the perspective of history, that is pretty quick. I am actually impressed that things are not a lot worse, Mbeki aside. Incidentally, I think Mandela is the one who kept the whites from fleeing with their money, thereby keping the country together; I just hope there is someone better than Mbeki in the wings.
Let us hope it does not become another Zimbabwe . . .
I bet you'll see whites, the ones that have enough money and are able, leave Africa like rats of a sinking ship.
roscoe,
Why should the Zulus be able to vote as citizens if they are invited into the country for labor purposes? It's not their country any more than Germany belongs to Turks that they invote in to be guest workers, or Mexicans that we may let in, so how are you disenfranchising them?
If aparteid was so bad why were so many Africans from other countries trying so hard to illegally immigrate to SA?
Why should the Zulus be able to vote as citizens if they are invited into the country for labor purposes? It's not their country any more than Germany belongs to Turks that they invote in to be guest workers, or Mexicans that we may let in, so how are you disenfranchising them?
If aparteid was so bad why were so many Africans from other countries trying so hard to illegally immigrate to SA?
Howdy, Malone!
Not seeing much of you these days.
For conveninece, simply insert predictable Khornet response to your points here:
Now, didn't that save us both a bunch of time?
Not seeing much of you these days.
For conveninece, simply insert predictable Khornet response to your points here:
Now, didn't that save us both a bunch of time?
Khornet: Very witty response there...
Mind if I use that w/ agricola? Would contain more content than most arguements he's used before...
Mind if I use that w/ agricola? Would contain more content than most arguements he's used before...
Now, fellas...
Not meant to insult Malone, Agricola, or St Johns for that matter. Just that we so predictably come down on opposite sides of questions. I just got lazy.
Not meant to insult Malone, Agricola, or St Johns for that matter. Just that we so predictably come down on opposite sides of questions. I just got lazy.
Wow, this has to be one of the best threads I have ever read. It really opened my eyes. I actually thought I knew a little about South Africa. Boy was I wrong.
A few years ago I applied for a couple of jobs in SA. Being a mining engineer I thought it would be a great opportunity/career move. However, after doing a little research I decided it probably wasn’t the best place for a white American. I heard several stories about how beautiful the country is, and the chance to visit Africa sounded very romantic.
It’s disturbing that the country has declined to its current state. I too think it has great potential. However, I’m not booking any plane tickets soon. I worked with an engineer that immigrated from SA back in the 80’s. He too is concerned about its present condition and worries about the family he left behind.
I wish I were insightful enough to suggest a solution. But, I’m not sure there is one.
six
A few years ago I applied for a couple of jobs in SA. Being a mining engineer I thought it would be a great opportunity/career move. However, after doing a little research I decided it probably wasn’t the best place for a white American. I heard several stories about how beautiful the country is, and the chance to visit Africa sounded very romantic.
It’s disturbing that the country has declined to its current state. I too think it has great potential. However, I’m not booking any plane tickets soon. I worked with an engineer that immigrated from SA back in the 80’s. He too is concerned about its present condition and worries about the family he left behind.
I wish I were insightful enough to suggest a solution. But, I’m not sure there is one.
six
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