I want to become a rifleman.
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spartacus2002
Member
Thankyou Sparticus2002, I had that from him, it seemed to only be a compostition of his articles from shotgun news, and wasn't too much help, I was hoping for a book, maybe with diagrams of shooting position, shooting theory, ect. SO that I could understand everything I need to do.
SpookyPistolero
Member
As someone earlier in the thread stated, mcooper, The Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper is probably what you're looking for. Happy reading.
LAK, if the scope mount works for you, that is great, not putting anything down. But, a friend of mine has one of those scope mounts, the drill and tap one. The scope does not sit over the bore, it is offset to the left side of the rifle. That rifle was not designed to be scoped. You can do it, but by doing it, you are working around it's basic design which was to have iron sights. This is just my opinion, but I never understood people's desire to take military surplus rifles and make them into something they were never intended to be. There are a lot of terrific rifles out there for reasonable prices that were designed to do exactly what you want to do, why not use them instead of trying to ice skate uphill.
This guy says he wants to be a rifleman. He doesn't need to have to work around his equipment. Shooting is enough work when you have the right gear. Trying to make stuff work for things it wasn't designed to do presents another obstacle IMO.
The K31 is a great buy. It is a great rifle. The quality of it is equal to any rifle ever made. You can spend a lot of time enjoying that rifle and becoming a fantastic shot with that rifle. No need to modify it.
There have been a number of good books recommended in this thread already. Jim Owens has out a whole series of books that are good. http://www.jarheadtop.com/
David Tubb is one of the greatest shooters of all time. His books and other good rifle books are available here: http://www.zediker.com/tubb/tubbmain.html click on BOOKS at the top of that page.
I think that Guide to becoming a Rifleman by Fred is excellent as well as his Quick and Dirty AQT targets.
For the close in phase of your training, you can use standard pistol drills while shooting your rifle.
http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/all_drills.html
Here is a dry firing page: http://www.personaldefensetraining....hp&PHPSESSID=87a8d23b3b4a833f7377b2dc00e41b89
Here is a course of fire used by Marine Force Recon. This is the drill we started each day with at Gunsite Advanced Carbine with Pat Rogers as rangemaster: http://www.personaldefensetraining.com/showpage.php?target=meu.php
Don't get hung up on drills that are designed for handguns: shoot them with your rifle. You can shoot them just as they were laid out for pistols for experience at close range or you can put the targets out further. For example, you can shoot the El Presidente' at 10 yards or you can do it at 100, 200 or whatever. Obviously a shot timer is a great thing to buy early on. Shooting at close range teaches you speed: how fast can you go and still maintain acceptable accuracy. Remember, if you are shooting for self defense, having a 1/4" group isn't going to gain you anything. Putting a couple shots into a 12" group COM in a fraction of a second is better. As you move back you will see that you need to slow down and pay more attention to marksmanship fundamentals. The only way you can know how fast you can go while still maintaining adequate accuracy is to get out there and do it. At 5 yards, you can make a precision head shot by using your front sight only and almost jerking the trigger. That same shot at 50 yards is going to require you to slow way down and have good sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger squeeze. As you move back you will find out how far away you are when you no longer have the skill to make a headshot with certainty. You will find out how far back you get before you need to switch from offhand to a steadier shooting postion etc.
Defensive like shooting is always a fine balance between speed and accuracy. You need to shoot as fast as possible, but not so fast that your accuracy becomes unacceptable. Training will show you your limits and will allow you to improve.
Here are a couple threads that I started that were similar to yours: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=155209&highlight=Rifle
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=104021&highlight=Rifle
This guy says he wants to be a rifleman. He doesn't need to have to work around his equipment. Shooting is enough work when you have the right gear. Trying to make stuff work for things it wasn't designed to do presents another obstacle IMO.
The K31 is a great buy. It is a great rifle. The quality of it is equal to any rifle ever made. You can spend a lot of time enjoying that rifle and becoming a fantastic shot with that rifle. No need to modify it.
There have been a number of good books recommended in this thread already. Jim Owens has out a whole series of books that are good. http://www.jarheadtop.com/
David Tubb is one of the greatest shooters of all time. His books and other good rifle books are available here: http://www.zediker.com/tubb/tubbmain.html click on BOOKS at the top of that page.
I think that Guide to becoming a Rifleman by Fred is excellent as well as his Quick and Dirty AQT targets.
For the close in phase of your training, you can use standard pistol drills while shooting your rifle.
http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/all_drills.html
Here is a dry firing page: http://www.personaldefensetraining....hp&PHPSESSID=87a8d23b3b4a833f7377b2dc00e41b89
Here is a course of fire used by Marine Force Recon. This is the drill we started each day with at Gunsite Advanced Carbine with Pat Rogers as rangemaster: http://www.personaldefensetraining.com/showpage.php?target=meu.php
Don't get hung up on drills that are designed for handguns: shoot them with your rifle. You can shoot them just as they were laid out for pistols for experience at close range or you can put the targets out further. For example, you can shoot the El Presidente' at 10 yards or you can do it at 100, 200 or whatever. Obviously a shot timer is a great thing to buy early on. Shooting at close range teaches you speed: how fast can you go and still maintain acceptable accuracy. Remember, if you are shooting for self defense, having a 1/4" group isn't going to gain you anything. Putting a couple shots into a 12" group COM in a fraction of a second is better. As you move back you will see that you need to slow down and pay more attention to marksmanship fundamentals. The only way you can know how fast you can go while still maintaining adequate accuracy is to get out there and do it. At 5 yards, you can make a precision head shot by using your front sight only and almost jerking the trigger. That same shot at 50 yards is going to require you to slow way down and have good sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger squeeze. As you move back you will find out how far away you are when you no longer have the skill to make a headshot with certainty. You will find out how far back you get before you need to switch from offhand to a steadier shooting postion etc.
Defensive like shooting is always a fine balance between speed and accuracy. You need to shoot as fast as possible, but not so fast that your accuracy becomes unacceptable. Training will show you your limits and will allow you to improve.
Here are a couple threads that I started that were similar to yours: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=155209&highlight=Rifle
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=104021&highlight=Rifle
Yes, and like the other which is offset to the right, some compensation is required according to zero and range. Hardly any handicap in the practical realm.444 said:
Of course, no battle rifle of the same period or earlier was designed to be scoped. And all required - or require - some add-on appendages of some kind or another for the purpose.444 said:
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Jeff Timm
Member
355sigfan said:
Typical Democrat, looks and sees himself reflected.
Geoff
Who heard it all before. :banghead:
355sigfan said:
You must be lost. Here's the forum you meant to post that dribble on:
www.democraticunderground.com
Jeff Timm said:
Actually I am a registered republican but I may be changing to an idenpendent. The republicans are screwing the counrty over fast. Our deficit went from being paid off with a surplus to over a trillion in the hole again with Bush. More tax cuts for the wealthy while the middle and lower get their overtime pay taken away in his FLSA reform. He is trying to screw old people with his social security reform. Heck if I was super religious I would think Bush is the Anti christ. Then to add insult to injury he appoints an anti gun attorney general no better than Janet Reno of the Clinton era. The Republicans are not our friends. You should vote on the issues and the person not on a dogmatic party platform.
Pat
Stinkyshoe
Member
My thoughts exactly 355. I seriously question the war and the motivation behind it (who really stands to gain financially from it?, are they really fighting terrorism). I have a lot of respect for the guys there. I will not join the military(I too heard the lying recruiters ????) but I will become a rifleman.
"Typical Democrat, looks and sees himself reflected."
Typically knee jerk response, preaching to the choir of those who don't question.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison
"Typical Democrat, looks and sees himself reflected."
Typically knee jerk response, preaching to the choir of those who don't question.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison
Now, 355sigfan posted a lot of opinion but one verifiable (or not) fact sticks out:
1. There was nothing "paid off" under Clinton. At all. He, in conjuction with Congress, managed to make income meet expenditures. The accrued debt of god-knows-how-many-illions remained in place. This is not unlike finally managing to make your monthly payment and new charges on your credit card match up for one month- your balance doesn't just go *poof*.
2. Congress is the organization that finalizes budgets, so the Republican party should get credit for "Clinton's" balanced budget as well as the blame for the current unbalanced one. I'm always amused when people screech about Reagan-era budgets as being unbalanced, when the status of a Reagan budget was DOA upon arrival in a Democratic congress, and not for being too large.
Clinton does also deserve credit for pushing for a balanced budget, but it was Congress that served it up.
Now. Wasn't our otiginal poster talking about how to shoot? Let's try a thread veer back to The Point.
Mike
Uh. Not quite. You're confusing deficit with debt. Under Clinton we had a balanced budget with a surplus, correct. However, the debt was nowhere close to being paid off. Under Bush we have a budget deficit again, and (due to this) the debt is again climbing, but it sure didn;t get to where it is now from a starting point of $0 when Bush took office. Two points:
1. There was nothing "paid off" under Clinton. At all. He, in conjuction with Congress, managed to make income meet expenditures. The accrued debt of god-knows-how-many-illions remained in place. This is not unlike finally managing to make your monthly payment and new charges on your credit card match up for one month- your balance doesn't just go *poof*.
2. Congress is the organization that finalizes budgets, so the Republican party should get credit for "Clinton's" balanced budget as well as the blame for the current unbalanced one. I'm always amused when people screech about Reagan-era budgets as being unbalanced, when the status of a Reagan budget was DOA upon arrival in a Democratic congress, and not for being too large.
Clinton does also deserve credit for pushing for a balanced budget, but it was Congress that served it up.Now. Wasn't our otiginal poster talking about how to shoot? Let's try a thread veer back to The Point.
Mike
Coronach said:Now, 355sigfan posted a lot of opinion but one verifiable (or not) fact sticks out:Uh. Not quite. You're confusing deficit with debt. Under Clinton we had a balanced budget with a surplus, correct. However, the debt was nowhere close to being paid off. Under Bush we have a budget deficit again, and (due to this) the debt is again climbing, but it sure didn;t get to where it is now from a starting point of $0 when Bush took office. Two points:
1. There was nothing "paid off" under Clinton. At all. He, in conjuction with Congress, managed to make income meet expenditures. The accrued debt of god-knows-how-many-illions remained in place. This is not unlike finally managing to make your monthly payment and new charges on your credit card match up for one month- your balance doesn't just go *poof*.
2. Congress is the organization that finalizes budgets, so the Republican party should get credit for "Clinton's" balanced budget as well as the blame for the current unbalanced one. I'm always amused when people screech about Reagan-era budgets as being unbalanced, when the status of a Reagan budget was DOA upon arrival in a Democratic congress, and not for being too large.
Now. Wasn't our otiginal poster talking about how to shoot? Let's try a thread veer back to The Point.
Mike
Ok for the sake of argument we can agree Bush has raised the national debt and changed FLSA to negatively effect the working man. Yea great guy. He also appointed an anti gun attorney general who said he and Bush support a renewed assault rifle ban. Ok now back on topic.
Pat
jobu07
Contributing Member
Anyway Pat... Like the moderator said, lets get this back on track.
My suggestion to you if you want to become a skilled rifleman, set aside some extra money each month that you would spend on books and games and other stuff that isn't a priority and spend it on ammo. Then invest your free time in practicing. You'll be an expert shot before you know it.
P-32
Member
I would recommend finding a High Power Clinic and attending it. I shoot High Power to increase my rifle skills in the field. Shooting Bullseye pistol is another way to gain skills needed for rifle shooting, Yeah I know shooting pistols is different but the same skills are needed.
Pat, Pat, Pat...as a retired service member and having been to Iraq during the first war, I must disagree with you on some points. During the Klinton years I paid high taxes. When Bush came into office my taxes were reduced to what I believe is more in line with what I make. I am simply middle class.
As for the current Iraq war, My question to you is If you see someone about ready to point a gun at you, do you wait until it is pointed at you or do you stop the threat before it's pointed at you? Point is, we were going to have to take care of Iraq sooner or later. Why not do it on our terms.
As a retired service member, I mourn the loss of every person in uniform. I believe we have done very well for the number of rounds that have been flying around. The media has done a good job of showing us all the things that are wrong in Iraq, not the whole story. I believe history will be kind to us.
Pat, Pat, Pat...as a retired service member and having been to Iraq during the first war, I must disagree with you on some points. During the Klinton years I paid high taxes. When Bush came into office my taxes were reduced to what I believe is more in line with what I make. I am simply middle class.
As for the current Iraq war, My question to you is If you see someone about ready to point a gun at you, do you wait until it is pointed at you or do you stop the threat before it's pointed at you? Point is, we were going to have to take care of Iraq sooner or later. Why not do it on our terms.
As a retired service member, I mourn the loss of every person in uniform. I believe we have done very well for the number of rounds that have been flying around. The media has done a good job of showing us all the things that are wrong in Iraq, not the whole story. I believe history will be kind to us.
Jeff Timm
Member
Stinkyshoe said:
You sound like an honest product of the Communist / Democrat schools. Completely ignorant and totally full of false self importance.
The pre WWII schools taught Latin and Greek in High School. Now we teach remedial english in colleges. You have no knowlege of history, mathmatics or economics and are reduced to political sloganism, without knowing what the slogans mean.
I suggest you join the Army, get a real taste of reality, and assuming you survive (last time I ran the numbers casualties of all kinds were less than 1%) you might want to reconsider your attitudes.
Geoff
Who suggests the Coast Guard Reading List to augment your education http://www.uscg.mil/leadership/leadci/read.htm , or the list of recommended books at www.jerrypournelle.com. :banghead:
bobhaverford
Member
- Joined
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- 138
swingset said:
Thank you. Someone needed to say it.
spartacus2002
Member
Something you should take to heart. Outstanding advice so early on in the thread:
Fixing bad mechanics is 100x harder than avoiding bad habits in the first place.
As far as "reading" goes, I found FM 23-10 to be well worth it. You can find the marksmanship Chapter here:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/23-10/ch3.htm
but I recommend reading the whole thing. It can be found online.
A set of the new tech-sights on the 10/22 should make for a nice cheap and effective trainer for peep sights.
Understand the fundamentals, use dry-fire practice to hone them as much as you can when not at the range.
Practice each fundamental separately, then combine them. Amazing what you will be able to accomplish by combining 3 or 4 easily acquired skills. The whole will become more than the sum of the parts. The progress you make yourself becomes it's own reward, and will push you harder than any external motivator can.
Fixing bad mechanics is 100x harder than avoiding bad habits in the first place.
As far as "reading" goes, I found FM 23-10 to be well worth it. You can find the marksmanship Chapter here:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/23-10/ch3.htm
but I recommend reading the whole thing. It can be found online.
A set of the new tech-sights on the 10/22 should make for a nice cheap and effective trainer for peep sights.
Understand the fundamentals, use dry-fire practice to hone them as much as you can when not at the range.
Practice each fundamental separately, then combine them. Amazing what you will be able to accomplish by combining 3 or 4 easily acquired skills. The whole will become more than the sum of the parts. The progress you make yourself becomes it's own reward, and will push you harder than any external motivator can.
One of the biggest things that seperates the rifle owner from the rifle shooter is the ability to shoot a rifle without a bench. I would wager that 90% or more of people who own and shoot rifles, do so off a bench. This shows you a lot about what your rifle is capable of and almost nothing about what you are capable of without a bench. I can show you millions of guys that can shoot tight little groups off a bench that couldn't hit the side of a barn if they were standing inside without the bench.
Since you want to become a rifleman, you need to master the basic positions as well as the use of a rifle sling. If you followed up with the information given to you previously (and haven't been scared away by the thread hijackers) you got the information from Fred, who discusses the importance of the sling and some basic information on how to use it. Here are a couple links on how to attach a 1907 sling and how to use a 1907 sling. http://turnersling.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TS&Category_Code=FAQ
Get away from the bench, just so no to bipods, shun sandbags, abstain from rests of all kinds. Riflemen use good solid shooting positions and a good sling. Don't forget about natural point of aim: so much good info in that stuff from Fred. That information is nothing new and is available many places; but that stuff from Fred, IMO gives you a lot of info in a few sheets of paper.
Since you want to become a rifleman, you need to master the basic positions as well as the use of a rifle sling. If you followed up with the information given to you previously (and haven't been scared away by the thread hijackers) you got the information from Fred, who discusses the importance of the sling and some basic information on how to use it. Here are a couple links on how to attach a 1907 sling and how to use a 1907 sling. http://turnersling.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TS&Category_Code=FAQ
Get away from the bench, just so no to bipods, shun sandbags, abstain from rests of all kinds. Riflemen use good solid shooting positions and a good sling. Don't forget about natural point of aim: so much good info in that stuff from Fred. That information is nothing new and is available many places; but that stuff from Fred, IMO gives you a lot of info in a few sheets of paper.
Essex County
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,247
Excelltnt Post 444.
A lot of shooters feel That if they can hit a 16 oz. beer can off a bench they are good to go. The're plenty that don't know proper technique for shooting off the bags. And their shooting from field positions is woeful. I'm an avid shooter and I still do pretty well off the bench, but because of a progressive neurological disease I am nowhere where I was twenty years ago. After some soul searching I feel that my offhand, ethical, limit is about 100 yards. I can live with that, but there are many that decieve themselves. Thanks for listening, Essex
A lot of shooters feel That if they can hit a 16 oz. beer can off a bench they are good to go. The're plenty that don't know proper technique for shooting off the bags. And their shooting from field positions is woeful. I'm an avid shooter and I still do pretty well off the bench, but because of a progressive neurological disease I am nowhere where I was twenty years ago. After some soul searching I feel that my offhand, ethical, limit is about 100 yards. I can live with that, but there are many that decieve themselves. Thanks for listening, Essex
spartacus2002
Member
I just hosted a 4-person rifle clinic. All of them had devoted time to shooting from the bench. Once they shot in positions, they realized how benchrest shooting with the rifle supported in a riflestand bore little to no reality to being on their belly with a sling around their biceps.
Amazon or Paladin Press should have MCRP 3-01A, Rifle Marksmanship, which has pictures of the different shooting positions.
Amazon or Paladin Press should have MCRP 3-01A, Rifle Marksmanship, which has pictures of the different shooting positions.
Jeff Timm
Member
355sigfan commented, "You sound like a right wing NAZI. Do you listen to RUSH and ART BELL and take all their wisdom as truth. LOL
Pat
__________________
Police Firearms Instructor. Urban Rifle Instructor. Colt M16/AR15 Armorer.
Glock Armorer. "
Sigh, from my point of view, NAZIs, Communists and Democrats are identical, a group of evil people who seize power and then destroy anyone who might be a threat, real or suspected by any means possible and use the same "big lie repeated" techique currently being demonstrated by the Democrats attacking Bush. I also note that one cannot be a "Right Wing Nazi" as the National Socialist Party is left wing.
Geoff
Who notes the lack of education once again. :banghead:
Pat
__________________
Police Firearms Instructor. Urban Rifle Instructor. Colt M16/AR15 Armorer.
Glock Armorer. "
Sigh, from my point of view, NAZIs, Communists and Democrats are identical, a group of evil people who seize power and then destroy anyone who might be a threat, real or suspected by any means possible and use the same "big lie repeated" techique currently being demonstrated by the Democrats attacking Bush. I also note that one cannot be a "Right Wing Nazi" as the National Socialist Party is left wing.
Geoff
Who notes the lack of education once again. :banghead:
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