I want to shoot competition pistol, what gun to buy?

[Hanzo581]

I figure I'll ask here. I too am looking to get into competitive shooting. I want to start off in the straight up production class. My problem is the only two guns I have that I would even consider running are my SR9c or my XD45. I bought the SR9c for carry, but it does take full size SR9 17 rd magazines, but it only has a 3.5" barrel. And I would prefer not to run my XD45 for obvious ammo cost reasons.

So, I was looking at something like this, would this be a pretty solid and accurate pistol for competition? Or should I just start with what I have?

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/54595

 

[Jim Watson]

Start with whatever you have that is even reasonably suitable.
A half case of .45 won't cost as much as a new gun and by then you might know enough to shop sensibly. Or decide to take up fishing.

 

[Hanzo581]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "by then you might know enough to shop sensibly".

 

[Jim Watson]

I meant that by the time you have fired 500 timed and scored shots (in addition to practice), you should have some idea of what you need or want different in a gun to help you shoot better.

 

[1SOW]

Mr. Watson's advice is spot on.

I'm a fairly new action shooter, and he's giving you good advice.

There's an old saying that "Shooters have deep pockets". You'll live up to that old saying fast if you're not careful. I started one, " I usually have the second best idea first".

 

[LubeckTech]

Before buying anything you might want to give the SR9c a try.
The M&P is fast becoming one of the favorite pistols in competitive shooting and is my preference. I have been shooting a M&P 40 in IDPA and USPSA for about 3 years now. Just bought a M&P 9L (5") because I have started shooting more matches and want to take advantage of the abundance of 9mm brass I am able to gather. Out of the box the 9L trigger was a gritty 6.5 lbs but with the addition of an Apex Tactical AEK trigger kit I now have a 2.75 lb trigger that is almost as good as a 1911. Straight out of the box the M&P would not be much better than the Ruger but with some trigger work you can do yourself the 9L would be an outstanding pistol that is a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[Hanzo581]

At the ranges I have shot my SR9c it has proven very very accurate, what is the farthest I would be shooting in a production event roughly?

 

[1SOW]

roughly you can expect the majority to be well inside of 25 yds. On the other hand, this years Nationals had a LOT of SMALL targets well beyond 25 yds. It depends a lot on where you shoot.

P.S. I started USPSA production class with a S.D. Sig 239 (with a 3.6" bbl) an Uncle Mike's holster and mag carriers from Academy Sporting Goods. Actually it shot pretty well, but first I had to buy Sig's 10 rd extended mags---$$$$$. I had a lot of fun with it.

Go with what you've got---for a while.

 

[Hanzo581]

Well beyond 25 yards for pistol? Interesting, I have watched matches on TV and none seemed that far, I guess seeing it live is a whole other ballgame. Don't know how well I would be served with a 3.5" barrel. I'd prefer something with a longer sight radius.

 

[Justin]

Shooting guns ain't cheap. Shooting in competition definitely ain't cheap. In fact, it'll cost a small fortune.

I thought that shooting was an expensive sport.

And then I met guys who were into speed boats and car racing.

Comparatively speaking, competitive shooting is downright dirt cheap. I suppose if you wanted a cheaper hobby, there's always Pokemon...

 

[Justin]

Well beyond 25 yards for pistol? Interesting, I have watched matches on TV and none seemed that far, I guess seeing it live is a whole other ballgame. Don't know how well I would be served with a 3.5" barrel. I'd prefer something with a longer sight radius.

Hanzo, get out to some local matches and run what you brung. Don't get hung up on gear at this point. Shoot a few matches, and if need be, re-evaluate your gear choices at a later time.

 

[LubeckTech]

Hanzo,

Look for some IDPA matches as a starting point. Your SR9c will serve you well there with most targets being in the 5 - 12 yard range with an occasional target at 20 yards. USPSA is quite a bit more difficult than IDPA but IDPA is more realistic. It generally has fewer targets at closer ranges but the rules are more oriented toward situations you could encounter in the real world. To be specific many stages will require you to draw from concealment and either shoot on the move or from behind cover. Good IDPA stages tend to be modeled from actual or likley encounters and tend to use props like carrying a simulated baby or retrieving a drink from the bottom of an ice filled cooler. IDPA is more about tactics where USPSA is more about the mechanics of shooting. I think anyone who carries should shoot at least one IDPA match per year - it is NOT a substitute for professional training but a good exercise and a lot of fun.

 

[ny32182]

IDPA is a sport; it is not ninja training. You can get good mechanical practice with your carry gear, and the gear rules in IDPA are such that you can even be pretty competetive with carry gear if you want to be. It is based around "self defense scenarios", but this concept is dubious at best. Shots can and do range from point blank to 35 yards per the rule book. Average range will depend on the stage designers in your area, but most of the time, the vast majority of shots are inside 20 yards in IDPA.

As someone with only limited exposure to IPSC/USPSA, my opinion is that the same basic mechanical skill sets are needed in those as they are in IDPA. There may be some finer points of the former that I'm not familiar with, but in general, especially for a newbie, the skills needed to do well in either will be almost exactly the same. Some of the rules are different; that is the main difference.

As far as "difficulty".... everyone has to make the same shots, and only one can win. So "difficulty" comes out in the wash regardless of which one you are shooting.

 

[Bovice]

I wouldn't worry about the barrel length of the SR9c, Hanzo. I shoot IDPA with an only slightly longer barrel (3.9). To top that off, its a .40, and I refuse to load creampuffs to get 9mm-like recoil because I think it defeats the concept of it being a DEFENSIVE PISTOL competition. Use a gun that you would probably find yourself using in self-defense situations. No, it isn't real, but the basic motions you will have to go through while under pressure are still the same. Try not to be too much of a "gamer" in the beginning. Fancy gear, custom trigger work, and fiber optic sights don't mean anything if you haven't got the fundamentals of shooting.

 

[Hanzo581]

Sounds like a plan, I will find some IDPA matches near me and run my SR9c and see how it goes.

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[David E]

Hanzo, to answer your question, the M&P Pro would be an ideal gun to run in Production and SSP.

I like mine!

 

[Sam1911]

Are you prepared to spend 5k+ a year on gear, reloading components, instruction, travel to matches, match fees, etc? If not, you are not going to get far, if you actually want to do more than just "show up". The top guys spend more like 20k a year.

I really don't understand the negative attitude I keep seeing here. All this worry about "not going to get far" and concern over what the "top guys" do. Who cares? Shooting practical handgun (or 3-gun, etc) matches is FUN! It's great practice! It is a fantastic means to improving your own gun handling skills, safety practices, accuracy under realistic conditions, and confidence in your equipment ... and yourself. Plus, it is a fantastic way to meet an incredible community of amazingly friendly, open, and helpful fellow shooters.

The worry about going far, making it big, bringing home the gold, setting the world on fire, and looking at your costs as somehow wasted if you aren't bringing home trophies right away -- certainly seems to ONLY exist here in the virtual world.

When you get out from behind the keyboard and join the fun, you'll find a whole world of shooters all having the time of their lives, and who are perfectly happy to be making measurable progress at their own pace.

 

[Wedge]

To add to what Sam has said, I've only shot two matches of IDPA with hopes to go to more, so here is the take from a guy that is just getting started.

Other than the initial gear outlay for a G17, Glock holster, extra mag, mag holder for a gear outlay of around $600.

Match fee + ammo cost + gas to get there + breakfast w/ friends < $50. Plus I was only away from house, family responsibilities for around 5 hours...that's not much of a time sink either.

I would say that competition shooting has to be one of the cheapest ways to compete in ANYTHING, maybe a little more than running foot races since most 5k or 10ks cost about $30 to enter and you get a bunch of free swag and some food at the end and you have to factor in shoes which you'll need to buy 3 or 4 pairs over a year if not more depending on your miles per week.

 

[LubeckTech]

Who cares if you "get very far" or not?? Where is there to go in IDPA or USPSA (which is basically what we are talking about here)???? Both games are such that you can spend as little or as much as you want on but the MAIN reason to do it is to have FUN. It is not necessary to spend a fortune to have a blast nor is it absolutely necessary to spend a ton of money to shoot into the top 10% of any match you attend!! You can't buy talent!! The fastest IDPA shooter I ever saw was a young fellow in his early 20s who shot a Springfield 1911 and was so fast he was once accussed of not doing a mandatory reload at an IDPA regional match. Donnie was born with that talent and loved IDPA - the money he spent was on ammo and travel. Bill Nesbitt is a retired guy in SE Ohio who shoots his 3" S&W model 10 as well and many times better than Ken Hackathorn shoots a semi auto at IDPA matches -again it's talent and dedication not money that makes this happen. Civilian combat competition shooting was founded in this country by a small group of people (Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn Bob Vickers, etc) who saw the original sport, IPSC, quickly turn into an equipment race so USPSA was born then the same guys statred IDPA. The idea behind IDPA was that ordinary people with basic equipment could come out, shoot have fun and improve their skills. In IDPA a police trade in glock 17 or S&W 4006 has just much of a chance as a $3,000 1911 and even if you "win" all you get is bragging rights. In my opinion everyone who shows up at a IDPA or USPSA match from the top shooter to the dead last is a WINNER!!!! For less than $500 you have every bit as much of a chance at a match as the guy who spends $5K per year - it's up to you!

 

[ny32182]

To be fair, I've read more than once that Donnie Burton was shooting 1000rds a day when he was competing (he was a little "before my time" in IDPA but I did see him in person once, at my first and only sanctioned match before this year, back in 2007. I think he was 17 at the time and smoked the field by a wide margin). I imagine most of us could see some improvement if we were shooting 1000rds a day, but could not realistically afford the time and/or money commitment to do so.

That said I agree with everything Sam said. The vast majority of all shooters have no designs on competing at a high level, and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. You DON'T need to spend anywhere near 5k a year competing to get a lot better than you were before you started.

 

[Sam1911]

I'd like to challenge the basic math of this quote, too.

Are you prepared to spend 5k+ a year on gear, reloading components, instruction, travel to matches, match fees, etc?

Your gun, holster, mags, mag pouches, belt, ear & eye protection, vest, range bag, and any other incidentals certainly don't need to be replaced each year. Yeah, you're probably close to $800 or $1,000 by the time you get it all together, but that can be a one-time cost -- if you don't fall prey to the "buying talent" myth that makes you upgrade to more tactical socks or more "operator-grade" under shorts to get a competitive advantage every few months.

I shoot about 5 major "sanctioned" matches a year and something between 10-15 club matches. Call that $800 in match fees. (I work a lot of matches though as an SO so that knocks a big chunk out of that cost.) Most new shooters, and a whole lot of regular, dedicated, hobbyist shooters aren't going to go to 5 sanctioned matches a year so their fees would be maybe 1/2 of that. ($400)

Ammo... well, if you shoot an average of 100 rds of 9mm Wolf or other cheap practice ammo a week, plus an extra 150 rds a month for matches, that would be 7,000 rds. shot in a year -- a VERY good amount of shooting that will get you progressing very fast -- and that would cost about $1,300 at current prices.

So we're at a little under or over $2,000 a year for a very full schedule of shooting -- far surpassing what most of my shooters have time and inclination to get in. Your travel costs would add something to that, of course, but that would be entirely up to your location, how many of the matches you attend are "away," etc.

I don't think I've EVER spent $5,000 in a year on shooting. I'd like to, but I don't think I get there, even with memberships, travel, and occasional equipment upgrades. (My underwear isn't all that tactical, though.)

 

[Sam1911]

I can shoot targets by myself. The competition is to prove that I'm better.

Yes, but to prove that you're "better" than you were before. No one cares how many other shooters you "beat."

That's the cool thing about shooting competition. The competition is with yourself. A plaque or trophy is nice, but after a while, they're just so much more wood on the wall to dust.

 

[Jim Watson]

I can always beat myself if I don't try hard enough.
I am looking at my standings versus the other guys.

I wonder what people are talking about when they say they are only competing against themselves at IDPA, IPSC, or CAS. The stages are always different, there is no way to build up statistics like you can at Bullseye or Skeet which are standardized. Once I have avoided serious blunders like nonthreats, procedurals, and misses, the only way to gauge my performance is by comparison with other shooters of known ability. And I am definitely competing against them. These days, finishing in the top 1/3 overall is pretty good, but I used to do better.

 

[Sam1911]

I wonder what people are talking about when they say they are only competing against themselves at IDPA, IPSC, or CAS. The stages are always different,

When I personally say that, I mean that I know there will always be those who will outshoot me -- perhaps not at every match, but I don't have to go far to find them -- and I will always outshoot many others. I just can't get worked up over relative finishing position except as a vaguely amusing abstract concept.

I know if I shot to my potential -- or just a bit better, or a whole lot worse -- and whether the other folks who showed up had good or bad days relative to their own current skill levels really doesn't affect that much.

I've shot matches where I brought home trophies and was disgusted with myself as I knew I could have done better. I've also been pleased as punch with my own performance, while finishing way out of the running for another chunk of chachka to cover stains on my wall.

In the end, shooting is (to me) a matter of self-improvement with practical utility. Worrying over adding to the "I Love Me" wall would be straying far from my purposes in the exercise.

...

Said another way, winning is the WORST thing possible. Believing yourself to be "the best" substitutes smug complacency for the eternal quest for mastery. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[Jim Watson]

I know if I shot to my potential

I am not that skilled at self criticism. A stage that feels good usually turns out to be accurate but slow. I have to really push hard and feel like I am on the edge of failure to do well. Ten tenths.

The ony trophy I miss from The Incident in which my house burned was one from my first statewide PPC match in 1978.