identifying a 38 smith and wesson revolver

[redname]

I need help with this one. Would love to know the history of this pistol.
I have a Smith and Wesson 38 Revolver. The barrel is 5" long, nickle plated. On the top of the barrel is stamped, SMITH&WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS USA PAT D JAN 24 05 { NEXT LINE UNDER } JULY 11 05 AUG 24 05 REISSUE JULY 25 71 MAY 11 80 JAN 5 82
The bottom of the handle looks to be stamped 496900
Keep in mind that I will probably have to get a better and bigger magnifying glass to see the numbers clearer on the barrel, handle, and cylinder. 0's kind of look like 6's and visa verse.
Have some numbers on the cylinder where the bullets are chambered looks to be 409000.
Again I'm not sure the numbers on the cylinder, they are very worn. In fact this firearm should not be fired.
What I'm getting at I just can't believe that this pistol is was made in 1971 when I know I've had it stored in a ammo box for about 20 years are longer. My Father gave it to me a long time ago and was given to him I'm sure over 50 years ago. Is this possible? The dates do not match up. Some identifying thing is that this pistol has the Smith and Wesson emblem stamped on the side and the grips have a target instead of the S&W emblem. Can any body identify this pistol? Thanks

 

[J.R.W.]

Pics may be very helpful here.

 

[Jim Watson]

Is it a Hand Ejector with swing-out cylinder? Six shot?
If so, it is a Military and Police. The patent dates are not what Flayderman shows but the serial number is from sometime between WW I and WW II.
Pictures will be a big help. Then Old Fuff can give details.

If the grips with target logo are large and made of black rubber, they are the Mershon Ten Point aftermarket grip.

 

[Old Fuff]

You didn't say, but I presume that this is a 5-shot/top break style revolver.

If I'm correct you have a Smith & Wesson .38 Double Action, 4th. Model.

These were made between 1895 and 1909, within a serial number range running from 322,701 to 539,000. Standard barrel lengths were 31/4, 4, 5 and 6 inches. The 5-shot cylinder is chambered to use .38 S&W cartridges. (Do not confuse this with the more modern .38 Special round). Cataloged finishes were blue or nickel plate with balck hard-rubber stocks. Your revolver is a bit unusual in that the barrel was made for an earlier 38 Double Action, 3rd Model (1884-1895) but it was not unusual for S&W to use older parts so long as they remained in stock.

While Smith & Wesson did supply square-butt stocks made of hard-rubber or checkered walnut, they did not have the target emblem you describe. But a competitor, Herrington & Richardson did, and I suspect a pair has been adapted to fit on your S&W revolver.

Given this gun's history within your family, I suggest that you get it "lettered." To do so you will need a snapshot of the gun, a full description including the serial number on the butt, and a check in the amount of $50.00 made out to Smith & Wesson. In exchange the company's historian, Roy G. Jinks, will research the original records (which are not computerized by the way) and send you a letter containing the details of what he finds.

This comprehensive document will contain an overview of the model’s history, followed by the details of your particular gun. This usually includes the caliber, barrel length, finish, and the exact date it was shipped from the factory, and to what distributor or dealer. If there are any special features they will be listed too. This information is often invaluable to both you and future generations.

Additional information on a historical letter will be found at the Smith & Wesson company website at:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...catalogId=11101&content=25301&sectionId=10504

To add: Jim Watson could be right about the Mershon Ten Point grips, but off-hand I don't believe they were made for the top-break series of .38 revolvers.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Redname,

I think you are off a bit, like by a century. Those patent dates are for the 1800's not the 1900's.

The revolver is probably a .38 Double Action, Fourth Model, a break top revolver. (To open it you pull up on the latch above the hammer.)

There were some 539,000 made of that series; the Fourth Model was made from 1895-1909, serial numbers 322,000 - 539,000 (approx.)

Jim

 

[redname]

Thanks
The pistol is a double action top break 5 shot cylinder. I will try in the near future to get a picture posted. The dates stamped on the barrel sure have me confused? Again Thanks! I have never did this thread thing before.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree, that Mershon did not make grips for top-breaks, and that H&R grips have been adapted. A 5" top-break is not common but it is not made to sound in good condition.

 

[Old Fuff]

The dates stamped on the barrel sure have me confused?

Those dates represent certain patents, and when they were issued. Each date indicates a U.S. patent covering some feature incorporated into that revolver. However they have nothing to do with the date the gun was made.

 

[StrawHat]

Old Fuff, in a way the patent date do help identify the age. The revolver could not have been made before the latest one.

We still need to see pictures.

 

[redname]

pictures are coming

Thanks again fellows!

 

[Old Fuff]

We still need to see pictures.

It would be nice, but the O.P. came from a new member with only 2 posts for past experience. He may need some time to learn the ropes.

I managed to identify the revolver's model by looking up the patent dates, and the approximate year of manufacture by checking out the serial number.

 

[Jim K]

ID was made a bit easier by the fact that only a few S&W revolvers would have had that high a serial number.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

Jim is correct. The .38 Double Action model reached serial number 554,077 before it was discontinued in 1911. No other Smith & Wesson surpassed this little pocket model/top-break until the .38 Military & Police arrived at this number and passed it sometime in the early 1930's. Thus it was the most popular S&W revolver made during the 19th century, and the second most popular one made between the establishment of the company in 1857 and approximately 1930. Yet today it is generally ignored except for a few collectors.

 

[redname]

The pictures are in

Thanks for the help. This has been wonderful.

 

[Old Fuff]

Yes, your pictures confirm the identification.

 

[revolverforums]

It's a DA38, they may be old but still good shooters. If you want to know the history you can always send a letter off to Mr Jinks, I have the letter on mine. Mine is a later model then yours because it has both top and side latch and mine was shipped from the factory April 2 1917. Yours should have been made before that date.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yet today it is generally ignored except for a few collectors.

Maybe because one such collector told me that the DA .38 topbreaks were the next most fragile gun in popular sales to the Colt Lightning. A friend has one in pieces in a box because the self-sprung cylinder stop is broken. No replacements are available because they so commonly broke as to have used up all the spares and all the parted out guns.

Revolverforum's gun is an entirely different breed of cat, the Perfected Model with top and side latch and integral trigger guard. I'd like to see one apart, looks like a top-break relation of the I frame Hand Ejectors from the outside.

 

[Old Fuff]

Maybe because one such collector told me that the DA .38 topbreaks were the next most fragile gun in popular sales to the Colt Lightning. A friend has one in pieces in a box because the self-sprung cylinder stop is broken. No replacements are available because they so commonly broke as to have used up all the spares and all the parted out guns.

They were made from 1880 to 1911, and S&W made some 554,077 of them so they couldn't have been too fragile or they wouldn't have lasted that long. I have taken them apart, and while it isn't easy, it's nothing compared to a Colt 1877. Replacement parts are a problem, but the same can be said about early Colts - except for the single Action Army.

Revolverforum's gun is an entirely different breed of cat, the Perfected Model with top and side latch and integral trigger guard. I'd like to see one apart, looks like a top-break relation of the I frame Hand Ejectors from the outside.

It was an interesting design. D.B. Wesson wanted to try one last top-break, but not spend a whole lot of money doing it. He gave his son Joe the job of coming up with something. Joe took the barrel/cylinder assembly from the .38 Safety Hammerless and matched it to a new frame that mostly duplicated the 1903 Hand Ejector (I-frame). Since it used most of the 1903 internal parts the cost of tooling the new revolver was very limited. He also incorporated a second barrel latch to prevent someone from grabbing the regular barrel latch and lifting it while tipping the barrel down and ejecting all of the cartridges in the cylinder. Colt's advertising used to point out this weakness (in theory) of the S&W top-break design, so Joe cut them off at the knees. The Perfected Model lasted from 1909 to 1920, with some 59,400 of them being made. But by 1920 the market for top-break revolvers had largely diminished except for cheaper copies made by H&R and Iver Johnson, and S&W couldn’t compete with those.

 

[Tightwoad]

I have one that used to be my grandfather's. Looks just like the pic.The Serial number is 24126. Is this still a 4th model being pre 330k? Last pat. stamp on barrel was Sept.14 09.

 

[machinisttx]

No replacements are available because they so commonly broke as to have used up all the spares and all the parted out guns.

This is absolutely false. If you had inserted the word "readily" I would agree.

Got any machinist friends? We make stuff.

 

[Jim Watson]

This is one of those things that having a part custom made would run the repair cost to more than the gun is worth. A common breakage of S&W DA .32 and .38 topbreaks of third and later models, much the most common, is the cylinder stop. It is long and skinny and is its own spring. I wonder what you would charge to make one and spring temper it.
J.B. Wood once showed a bandaid of bending spring wire to shape and snapping it into place.

As to why a fragile gun could be popular, they are lightweight concealment guns from an era that did not emphasize training and practice. And they are not that much fun to shoot. My little single action .38, a sturdier design, is a rather hard kicker. So they did not get shot much.

 

[Bezoar]

well they were used in the police departments of america into the late 1940s as a normal side arm.

not ideally suited for shooting "1000 round pistol classes" like gunsite or thunder ranch, but good neough for plinking in the back yard and for room clearing if you dont mind using a gun made before the archduke ferdinand was killed, and using a cartridge that predates the spanish american war.

 

[Old Fuff]

Gee;

I was under the impression that the .32-20, 38-40, .44-40, .45 Colt, and probably a few other cartridges that are still popular pre-dated 1898 and the Spainish-American War.

The .38 S&W cartridge dates from about 1876, but it was used by the British as a service revolver round through the Second World War, and was still used in Korea. Enfield, Webley, Smith & Wesson and Colt made revolvers, and they all could easily stand up to "1000 round pistol classes."

The Smith & Wesson .38 Safety Hammerless (same revolver as the one under consideration accept for an enclosed hammer) was tested as a potential army revolver during the 1890's. It failed not because of part breakage, but rather the rust test. It remained in production from 1887 to 1940. Obviously they couldn't have been too fragile.

 

[rogertc1]

I have a Enfield that is in .38 S&W cartridge. This is one round that is really easy to accually watch go down range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_S&W

 

[Klamath]

My father gave me a S&W revolver, 5 shot, double action, nickel plated, black plastic grip, 4" barrel. the SN is kind of strange. It appears to be SN 401519. The "9" is very small compared with the rest of the numbers, making me wonder if it is in fact the number 9. There is no other writing on the gun. The photos posted by redname look just like this pistol that my father gave me, but there is no writing on the barrel, and mine is only a 4" barrel. Any thoughts would be appreciated!