Identity and Date of Manufacture of S&W Revolvers

[Radagast]

atexmp1522:
It is a +P gun. THR member Saxon Pig has fired 1200 rounds of +P, +P+ and the old pre-magnum .38 High Speed through a K frame made a few years before yours. No timing issues, no kaboom.
In the 1970s the .38 special loads were downloaded. Today's +P is equivalent to the standard pressure load from when your gun was made.
I personally would not shoot any LEO only marked +P+ ammo as there is no industry standard for +P+. +P+ .38 special was for use in .357 magnum revolvers by departments that would not allow magnum ammo for political reasons.

 

[63Bravo]

Thanks Radagast I shot it today. I shot some lead 125gr bullets with trail boss behind it. Pretty fun.

 

[Waveski]

"It predates heat treatment of cylinders, so stick to standard pressure lead loads only, no jacketed or PlusP."

Please explain the potential risk of using jacketed ammunition.

Edit - Question has been moved to a different forum.

 

[Radagast]

Waveski:
The following was posted by one of the mods at handloadersbench.com:

Pressure is built up by the resistance of the bullet in the barrel, be it resistance to deforming due to the rifling and slightly undersize of the barrel diameter, and the specific friction of the bullet material in a specific barrel.
Lead is softer than whatever kind of jacket material available and will adapt to the size and rifling profile of the barrel without as much pressure as is needed to deform the jacketed bullet to barrel size and will thus not built up a pressure as high before it starts moving along the barrel bore.
This of course when compared bullets of the same weight and size.

Another member mentioned that Lyman's list greater pressures for jacketed over lead when weight and charge are the same.

Over the years of maintaining this thread there have been several pre-1930s K frames with barrels that had a non matching serial number, suggesting that bulged or blown barrels were not uncommon. The later guns don't seem to have that problem.

Pre-heat treatment guns are at a minimum, 96 years old. The steel is not necessarily great. For this reason I recommend babying them. The load available at the time was lead only, 158 grain, standard pressure and that is what I would feed them.

 

[Waveski]

Your explanation makes sense. Allow me to play devil's advocate ;

Q: I have read here and elsewhere that the power and pressure of the standard .38 special load of the early 1900's was equal to today's +P. If that is true , would it not make sense that the early cylinders would be reasonably durable to the pressures of a jacketed bullet today?

Q: Why is the heavier bullet considered safer in relationship to a pre-heat treated cylinder? Wouldn't the lighter bullet accelerate faster , thus subjecting the cylinder to less pressure as the bullet quickly gets out of the way?

It is not my intention to second guess anyone's expertise here ; only the improve my understanding of these nuances.

 

[knuckleduster271]

Smith and wesson .38 special
Fixed sights, blued and 2" barrel
Serial # on bottom of handle #666xxx
Markings on barrel- 38s&w.spc.ctg.
Numbers on frame and cylinder #450xx
No letters

 

[Radagast]

knuckleduster271:
That is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 4th Change. Serial number 651500 shipped in 1935, number 683xxx in May 1940. The snub nosed variant was introduced in 1938.

Potentially your gun is from the first year of manufacture and from the pics it may be un-fired other than for factory testing. The grips are hard rubber, prone to cracking of mistreated and are probably numbered to the gun on the inside.

I'm an Aussie, so I'm not current on US prices, but I would not be surprised if a collector will pay more for that gun than a new one will set you back.

I suggest you post your pics at http://smith-wessonforum.com/ and ask for an idea of value. Don't shoot it until then.

 

[Radagast]

Waveski:
Q: I have read here and elsewhere that the power and pressure of the standard .38 special load of the early 1900's was equal to today's +P. If that is true , would it not make sense that the early cylinders would be reasonably durable to the pressures of a jacketed bullet today?
Anecdotal evidence only. But the replaced barrels are on earlier guns.
This could mean that there were more squibs with the then factory ammo, leading to bulged barrels; that some guns were blown up using .38 Hi-Speed intended for use in N frames; or that use black powder ammo lead to heavy corrosion.
You will not get a new 100 year old S&W, unless you buy one now and wait 100 years in cryo-stasis. So I recommend not taking risks.

Q: Why is the heavier bullet considered safer in relationship to a pre-heat treated cylinder? Wouldn't the lighter bullet accelerate faster , thus subjecting the cylinder to less pressure as the bullet quickly gets out of the way?
I don't have an opinion on this. It may be people are extrapolating from the 110 grain and 125 grain .357 magnum loads that were known to crack forcing cones. As the speed and pressures are nearly double that of the .38 special, I don't think the analogy holds.

The sights should be regulated for the 158 grain lead load, so that's what I would shoot.

 

[Radagast]

knuckleduster271: My info posted above was wrong. The snubbie was available from at least January 1934. Yours is still an excellent example.

 

[knuckleduster271]

Thanks Radagast. That helps a bunch
I even called s&w and they couldnt tell me anything.
It belongs to a lifelong friend of my wife\inlaws.
My mother in law told him i was a gun enthusiast so he asked me for a favor to look it up, possibly sell it for him.
The mans in his mid 80's and it belonged to his wifes dad who was an assistant police chief for the city they lived in.
I guess it was his back up gun or something.
Story is his former wife got it from her dads estate, now its his.
Has some bad history behind it, I guess his wife commited suicide with it some years ago.. Not sure why the hell he even wanted it back but i guess some people are different than others...
Kinda erie with the serial # starting with 666
He offered to sell it to me for $385-
I wasnt sure what its worth, i was guessing $400-450 range.
I told him id take it to the gun show next time i go and see what kind of offer i could get for him.

 

[Waveski]

Radagast of OZ -

Thanks once more for your work and informational contributions.

Your statement : "You will not get a new 100 year old S&W, unless you buy one now and wait 100 years in cryo-stasis. So I recommend not taking risks."
cannot be challenged , that's for sure!

 

[NottheFace]

Hello All!
A. .38 Spc
B. 6"
C. Square
D. 6 Rounds
E. Non-Adjustable
F. 161440
G. (6?)941 - The first digit is somewhat difficult to read.

Thanks.

 

[Waveski]

Smith and Wesson age , please ---

a. .38 special
b. 4" barrel
c. square butt
d. 6 shot
e. adjustable rear sight , Brougham front
f. on butt : K 281552
g. no model # on crane , assembly # A 3586 , with a 2 beneath that

Thank you in advance. 'Ski

 

[Radagast]

knuckleduster271:
$330 plus transfer fees is the going rate for a recent, ex security or police Model 10 with 4 inch barrel and a lot of wear from Buds or J&G.
$450-$550 should be the minimum for that collectors piece. But as I said, ask on the S&W forum or here in the revolver forum. You nay even get an offer to buy at its true price, rather than the low ball that you will be offered by gun show dealers.

 

[Radagast]

NottheFace:
You have a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 3rd Change manufactured between 1909 and 1915 in the serial range 146900 to 241703.
This is a K (medium) frame predecessor to the Modern model 10. Modern grips should fit, but the internals are different. The 'third change' refers to the third design change and there have been many more since then.
It predates heat treatment of cylinders, so stick to standard pressure lead loads only.
It predates the positive hammer block safety introduced after a fatality with a dropped gun in 1944, so treat it as a 5 shooter, leaving the chamber under the hammer empty.
It predates model numbers, which were introduced in 1957. The markings under the cylinder yoke cut out are assembly numbers, used to track parts in the factory.

 

[Radagast]

Waveski:
Nickel S&W pre-Model 15 Combat Masterpiece from 1956. Grips are post 1968 Factory targets.
If that nickel finish is original.... you have one of my bucket list guns.

 

[NottheFace]

Many thanks.

 

[Waveski]

Well sir , The nickel finish is original , and I am quite flattered to be in possession of one of your bucket list guns. I suspect that my "Combat Masterpiece" was a LEO carry as the right grip is all nobbled up , indicative to me that the revolver was carried on the left hip and was in contact with belt hardware on the inside of the carry ... or maybe right hip and exposed to lots of minor impacts. I should consider a Jinks letter , perhaps.

Thank you once again , 'Ski

 

[Waveski]

Right Grip

LEO holster wear???

 

[Radagast]

I'd guess right side wear and many impacts with desks, doors , car frames, etc. Perhaps the original owner was a bit of a clutz and slowly chipped away the originals until they needed replacenent.

 

[springfield30-06]

a) .357 Magnum
b) 4 inch barrel
c) Square butt
d) 6 rounds
e) Adjustable sights
f) N257**
g) Model 28-2

Thanks!

 

[Waveski]

"I'd guess right side wear and many impacts with desks, doors , car frames, etc. "

I decided to keep these grips (despite varnish by a p.o.) as they speak to the service the revolver has seen.

 

[Radagast]

springfield30-06:
Your Model 28-2 Highway Patrolman was manufactured in 1975 or early 1976. Serial number N259744 shipped 23rd March 1976.

 

[NavahoJoe]

Hello everyone!
Haven't posted here in quiet a while. I just found my Dad's old Smith and Wesson
.38 Special Revolver. It had been missing for several years. Was hoping the "experts" might tell me something about it.
.38 Special
6 Shot
Snub Barrel less than 2 inches
Serial # on butt V397XXX
Three Screws on Side, One in front of trigger guard
# inside crane 53115
Nickle Plated
Model # and mfg date, anyone????
Thanks for your help!
NavahoJoe

 

[rcmodel]

Cut down and refinished WWII Victory Model.
Probably made about Jan. 1943.

Normally found with a 4" barrel and dull black or blued finish.

It should have a lanyard loop on the butt, and U.S. property stamped on the top strap, among other markings.

Be aware it is not drop safe, so carry an empty chamber under the hammer.
Or be very careful you don't drop it!!

Here is what it looked like before cutting the barrel and plating it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=607298&highlight=Victory+model


PS: There were about 300 made for the Justice Department.
They are very rare, and worth a small fortune if not refinished in Chrome or Nickel!!



rc