If an antique firearm undergoes a 4473, is it antique still from a legal standpoint?

[Jessesky]

I know this sounds like a novel question. I purchased an 1896/11 Swiss Schmidt–Rubin Years back. It was technically an antique but the dealer insisted it he sent to an FFL. So I picked it up and the FFL at the time had me fill out a 4473 on the rifle. If I sell the rifle to a friend who lives in a bordering state, does he need to submit a 4473 even though it’s antique. But it did undergo an unnecessary 4473 in the past.

 

[OneFreeTexan]

It’s up to the individual FFL if he wants to fun a 4473...I’ve had them do that to guns that are obviously C&R, in fact one was a K-31. they are entitled to do that in the event that some part of the gun was changed ot make it non C&R. Basically a CYA approach. I find no problem with it.
If you are selling it out of state, I’m afraid that is beyond my knowledge base, however, a FFL made play it safe, rather than sorry,

 

[Jessesky]

It’s up to the individual FFL if he wants to fun a 4473...I’ve had them do that to guns that are obviously C&R, in fact one was a K-31. they are entitled to do that in the event that some part of the gun was changed ot make it non C&R. Basically a CYA approach. I find no problem with it.
If you are selling it out of state, I’m afraid that is beyond my knowledge base, however, a FFL made play it safe, rather than sorry,

I suppose what I’d like to know is, if I have to go through an FFL at all, or if I can simply give it to him as an antique.

 

[dogtown tom]

I know this sounds like a novel question. I purchased an 1896/11 Swiss Schmidt–Rubin Years back. It was technically an antique but the dealer insisted it he sent to an FFL. So I picked it up and the FFL at the time had me fill out a 4473 on the rifle. If I sell the rifle to a friend who lives in a bordering state, does he need to submit a 4473 even though it’s antique. But it did undergo an unnecessary 4473 in the past.

If a firearm meets the definition of "antique" in federal law, no Form 4473 is required.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...c627c913&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[dogtown tom]

It’s up to the individual FFL if he wants to fun a 4473...I’ve had them do that to guns that are obviously C&R, in fact one was a K-31. they are entitled to do that in the event that some part of the gun was changed ot make it non C&R. Basically a CYA approach. I find no problem with it.
If you are selling it out of state, I’m afraid that is beyond my knowledge base, however, a FFL made play it safe, rather than sorry,

If an FFL is transferring any firearm, the buyer must complete a Form 4473 and NICS.
C&R eligible guns aren't exempt from this requirement, whether obviously C&R or not.

If the buyer of a C&R eligible firearm holds an 03FFL (Collector of Curios and Relics) all that is required is to provide the dealer with a copy of that 03FFL.
Not an 03? Then you fill out the 4473.

 

[MAKster]

The actual firearm had to have been manufactured pre-1899 to be an antique firearm. Just because it was a model 1896/11 Schmidt-Rubin does not mean it was actually built in 1896. These rifles were produced well into the 20th century.

 

[DocRock]

You have to determine whether the firearm meets the definition of "Antique" provided above and act accordingly.

 

[Dfwkid]

Those old guns should have the year of manufacture on the receiver or barrel. Another example is the M1891 M-N rifle that I own. It was made in 1917, not 1891 which is the year of the model change.

 

[AlexanderA]

There's a bit of confusion in this thread between (a) antiques, and (b) "curios or relics" (C&R).

For an antique, the status is determined by when the receiver was made, regardless of later alterations. Production of the 1896/11 Swiss Schmidt–Rubin receivers spanned the Jan. 1, 1899, cutoff date for antiques, and therefore some are antiques even though the guns were rebarreled and otherwise modified after that date.

Specifically, the original 1896 model was manufactured from 1895 through 1912, with serial numbers through 236,500 having been made before 1899. The alterations to the 1896/11 configuration were done between 1912 and 1920, but that's not relevant for this purpose.

If the gun thus meets the legal definition of an antique (that is, if the serial number is below 236,501), it retains that status even if, by mistake, some dealer required a Form 4473 to be filled out on its sale. Subsequent transfers can be made without any further formalities. The previous Form 4473 can be safely ignored. (But it's understandable that the dealer, given the serial number situation and out of an abundance of caution, asked for the Form 4473.)

On the other hand, a C&R (a gun made after 1898 but at least 50 years prior to the current date) has a different rule. It loses C&R status if substantial alterations were made more recently than 50 years prior to the current date. For example, if a WW2 gun was sporterized less than 50 years ago, it's not a C&R. In any case, C&Rs are treated as modern guns (requiring a Form 4473) unless the transferee has an 03 (C&R) FFL.

Incidentally, if the OP's gun is not an antique (based on the serial number), it's at least a C&R.

 

[Jessesky]

Thanks for the responses. I suppose I wasn’t being clear enough in what I am looking for. I know the definition of C&R, antique, when to use a 4473 etc. I used to work in a gun shop, and buy and sell currently.

The rifle IS antique. It is pre 1899, I looked up the serial number.

When I first received the rifle however, the seller insisted I go through an FFL. It was a good price so I just went with it not to complicate things with him. So the rifle underwent an unnecessary 4473. It did not need one.

Wha

There's a bit of confusion in this thread between (a) antiques, and (b) "curios or relics" (C&R).

For an antique, the status is determined by when the receiver was made, regardless of later alterations. Production of the 1896/11 Swiss Schmidt–Rubin receivers spanned the Jan. 1, 1899, cutoff date for antiques, and therefore some are antiques even though the guns were rebarreled and otherwise modified after that date.

Specifically, the original 1896 model was manufactured from 1895 through 1912, with serial numbers through 236,500 having been made before 1899. The alterations to the 1896/11 configuration were done between 1912 and 1920, but that's not relevant for this purpose.

If the gun thus meets the legal definition of an antique (that is, if the serial number is below 236,501), it retains that status even if, by mistake, some dealer required a Form 4473 to be filled out on its sale. Subsequent transfers can be made without any further formalities. The previous Form 4473 can be safely ignored. (But it's understandable that the dealer, given the serial number situation and out of an abundance of caution, asked for the Form 4473.)

On the other hand, a C&R (a gun made after 1898 but at least 50 years prior to the current date) has a different rule. It loses C&R status if substantial alterations were made more recently than 50 years prior to the current date. For example, if a WW2 gun was sporterized less than 50 years ago, it's not a C&R. In any case, C&Rs are treated as modern guns (requiring a Form 4473) unless the transferee has an 03 (C&R) FFL.

Incidentally, if the OP's gun is not an antique (based on the serial number), it's at least a C&R.

Thank you this is what I needed addressed

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

If it’s truly an antique, you don’t need to do anything FFL-wise should you decide to move the rifle along. That’s according to the feds. State laws may differ.

Doing the 4473 dance last time doesn’t change the antique status of the gun

 

[Theohazard]

Doing the 4473 dance last time doesn’t change the antique status of the gun

This.

People often think the 4473 “registers” the firearm as something. But the 4473 is simply a transfer document; the dealer is required to list the firearm as it actually is. So a mistake on the 4473 doesn’t change what the firearm is (or, in this case, a 4473 that was filled out when it wasn’t needed).

This comes up a lot with AR-15 lower receivers: Just as a dealer mistakenly marking a receiver as a “rifle” on the 4473 doesn’t make it into a rifle, a dealer mistakenly selling an antique as a regular rifle on a 4473 doesn’t change the legal status of that antique.

 

[GBExpat]

People often think the 4473 “registers” the firearm as something.

Aaaaahhh, makes sense. Thanks for that. I was wondering why such a question was asked.

I could not imagine why anyone would think that a 4473 transfer would change an antique firearm's status.

 

[12Bravo20]

As others have said: as long as it is verified as an antique then no.

From the ATF website:

Are NICS background checks required for the transfer of antique firearms?
No. Because weapons that meet the definition of an “antique firearm” are not firearms subject to the GCA, licensees need not conduct a background check when transferring an antique firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3), 921(a)(16), 922(t); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.102]

 

[walterelm]

.... or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Just curious. I assume the .44 Henry is no longer produced. So if i start producing in the US the .44 Henry cartridge and sell it in my shop ... all rifles chambered in .44 Henry become "modern" rifles by law?

 

[newfalguy101]

Just curious. I assume the .44 Henry is no longer produced. So if i start producing in the US the .44 Henry cartridge and sell it in my shop ... all rifles chambered in .44 Henry become "modern" rifles by law?

The part you are refrencing is on regard to replicas of Antiques.

Original Henery 44s would all (I presume) would be antiques because all were built pre1899.

 

[whm1974]

If a firearm meets the definition of "antique" in federal law, no Form 4473 is required.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...c627c913&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Given the "Fixed Ammunition no longer manufactured in the US and not ordinary available in commercial trade..." Does that mean Firearms chambered in .41 Action Express are considered Antiques, due to near total lack of .41 AE cartridges?

As far as I know, no one makes this ammo in the US or imports it. On top of this, new casings are not ever being made reloading supply companies like Starline. Any ammo you did find would more collectable then the guns in question.

 

[whm1974]

For those of you that never hear of .41 AE, here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express
Added:
https://gunbelts.com/blog/41-caliber/

 

[12Bravo20]

Given the "Fixed Ammunition no longer manufactured in the US and not ordinary available in commercial trade..." Does that mean Firearms chambered in .41 Action Express are considered Antiques, due to near total lack of .41 AE cartridges?

As far as I know, no one makes this ammo in the US or imports it. On top of this, new casings are not ever being made reloading supply companies like Starline. Any ammo you did find would more collectable then the guns in question.

No they are not since they were made after 1898.

 

[whm1974]

No they are not since they were made after 1898.

I was just merely reading the FAQ on Antiques... Of course I would be asking the ATF about this...

 

[boom boom]

Given the "Fixed Ammunition no longer manufactured in the US and not ordinary available in commercial trade..." Does that mean Firearms chambered in .41 Action Express are considered Antiques, due to near total lack of .41 AE cartridges?

As far as I know, no one makes this ammo in the US or imports it. On top of this, new casings are not ever being made reloading supply companies like Starline. Any ammo you did find would more collectable then the guns in question.

Please go read the ATF definition, not what is on the Internetz,

A firearm has to be manufactured on or before 1898 or be a replica of a firearm manufactured on or before 1898, (leaving aside the matchlock, serpentine lock, flintlock or percussion cap--this leaves out the .41 AE in a modern semi-automatic) AND the replica a) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or b) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

So you would be left with trying to replicate these pistols AND make these to function with a .41 AE cartridge
https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...g-semi-automatic-pistols-of-the-19th-century/

A Henry antique replica would be a replica of a firearm made in or before 1898 AND in .44 Henry would be a rimfire cartridge that is obsolete/no longer manufactured in the US. Thus, ok.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

 

[Jim Watson]

A Henry antique replica would be a replica of a firearm made in or before 1898 AND in .44 Henry would be a rimfire cartridge that is obsolete/no longer manufactured in the US. Thus, ok.

Uberti actually made some replicas in .44 Henry Flat for collectors who wanted authenticity but couldn't afford originality.
I wonder what would be the legal status if you put in a centerfire breechbolt. Henry centerfire never was common, but I could make it in my ordinary reloading equipment.

 

[whm1974]

Uberti actually made some replicas in .44 Henry Flat for collectors who wanted authenticity but couldn't afford originality.
I wonder what would be the legal status if you put in a centerfire breechbolt. Henry centerfire never was common, but I could make it in my ordinary reloading equipment.

Wait a minute... A modern replica that is shootable chambered in no longer produced rimfire cartridges is considered to not be firearm by the ATF? So does their legal status change if someone does start manufacture ammo in these calibers?

 

[boom boom]

Wait a minute... A modern replica that is shootable chambered in no longer produced rimfire cartridges is considered to not be firearm by the ATF? So does their legal status change if someone does start manufacture ammo in these calibers?

Yes. The ATF explicitly reserves that right to change its rules based on whatever is being manufactured currently.

 

[boom boom]

Uberti actually made some replicas in .44 Henry Flat for collectors who wanted authenticity but couldn't afford originality.
I wonder what would be the legal status if you put in a centerfire breechbolt. Henry centerfire never was common, but I could make it in my ordinary reloading equipment.

Not sure if the Henry centerfire is currently being produced somewhere by someone. The discretion given to the ATF on this is very broad on technical matters such as "currently produced".