If NOLA residents had fired on home invading troops; legal ramifications?

[epijunkie67]

I've been looking at some of the videos of police and troops attempting to enforce the evacuation order in NOLA last year. Martial law was never declared so the military doesn't have the legal authority to "impose order" but the police can still enforce civilian law. I see that in some cases people were cuffed on the roadside and their weapons were confiscated but they were then released.

Which leads me to wonder about the following scenario. If I lived there and a group of people in BDUs approached my house and I refused to open the door but they forced their way in anyway (as happened). If at that point I opened fire with my weapon of choice, lets say a G3 or an M4, what would have happened? I'm sure there would have been some return fire but I don't think they actually expected to be fired on by an American citizen. Lets assume they fell back to regroup and call up heavier firepower and in the meantime I realize I'm never going to win this fight in the long run. So I surrender and get arrested.

NOW, it's court time. What happens in court? I know the government would like to be able to kick doors whenever they feel the need so they are going to push hard for a conviction but the pro 2nd groups and maybe even the ACLU (since it involves entry without a warrent) will want to support my side.

How would this play out in court?

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

You can't have legal action taken against you if you're dead.

 

[Oleg Volk]

My guess is they'd sue your estate.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

What Just_a_dude_with_a_gun said. If it gets to the point of them being inside your house at close range, if you open fire, you are basically dead.


Assuming, extremely hypothetically, that you survived I feel that you would probably be in the right legally and morally/philosophically. With the 2nd Amendment as the obvious justification. In all reality, the court would probably rule that it was a time of emergency or a special case or a matter of national security and you'd go to jail.

 

[BigFatKen]

safe room

If you are in your two foot thick concrete safe room, you can expect some LAWs or whatever they use now, if you still resist.

Last resort, bring in the tank. (see Waco, TX)

 

[steveracer]

We might all find out if the UN has its way.

I think you'd be dead, but your family could sue (unsucessfully) for whatever the court would bear.
If you lived, you would be in trouble for a long, long time, and after many years you might be released with an apology, like "sorry you were detained for 15 years. We had to get the facts straight, you know."

 

[Sam Adams]

Assuming, extremely hypothetically, that you survived I feel that you would probably be in the right legally and morally/philosophically. With the 2nd Amendment as the obvious justification. In all reality, the court would probably rule that it was a time of emergency or a special case or a matter of national security and you'd go to jail.

I'm not so sure I agree...after all, the fact is that NOLA lost the suit in federal court about having the "right" to disarm otherwise law-abiding citizens. If you survived and were arrested for assault, attempted murder or murder of one or more LEOs in such circumstances, I think that a good case could be made for strict self-defense.

Here's the defense that I would use: there were no police and plenty of looters around, I was in fear of my life/my family's lives, and here came a bunch of guys with guns breaking into my house *claiming* to be police officers. Since the police would *never* do such a blatantly illegal thing, especially when they were *so busy fighting looters and helping stranded people*, I just assumed that these guys weren't cops and that this was an attempt to kill me/my family and take our vital survival supplies like food and water.

With a jury of your peers, and especially in light of the 5th Circuit batting down of Nagin and his fascist henchmen, I think that you'd have a good case...IF you were alive to bring it.

 

[epijunkie67]

The scenario assumes you live through the encounter. It looked like they were just sending in one or two guys through the front door to check each house. You could take them out at first contact. Everybody else outside would take cover, call for backup and prepare to engage. At that point you would have the time to realize you weren't going to win this fight and surrender.

 

[rbernie]

If I lived there and a group of people in BDUs approached my house and I refused to open the door but they forced their way in anyway (as happened). If at that point I opened fire with my weapon of choice, lets say a G3 or an M4, what would have happened?

You'd have been riddled, either by the first wave or by their compatriots.

The scenario assumes you live through the encounter. It looked like they were just sending in one or two guys through the front door to check each house. You could take them out at first contact. Everybody else outside would take cover, call for backup and prepare to engage. At that point you would have the time to realize you weren't going to win this fight and surrender.

I dunno - maybe in the movies. I sure wouldn't want to bank on that sequence of events, just to prove a point.

 

[Sam Adams]

You can't have legal action taken against you if you're dead.

My guess is they'd sue your estate.

I dunno - maybe in the movies. I sure wouldn't want to bank on that sequence of events, just to prove a point.

Etc., etc.

Let's answer the man's hypothetical scenario:

Lets assume they fell back to regroup and call up heavier firepower and in the meantime I realize I'm never going to win this fight in the long run. So I surrender and get arrested.

People HAVE, after all, survived shooting/killing police officers and lived to go on trial about it.

 

[kel]

Even if an officer does not have the "right" to do something you cannot legally resist him if he is "just doing his job", which is interpreted to be pretty much anything an officer does. Officers have license (although they will deny it and quote oft ignored statutes and case law) to murder in cold blood anyone who resists them, even if the officer should not have been there in the first place (as was later proved in court in NOLA). Add to that the fact that the brotherhood will always protects its own when it comes to evidence and testimony, there is very little for you to work with in court should you try and test this by resisting. Try subpoenaing a 911 call or a radio transcripts when an officer arrests you for open carrying. Hint... you won't get the records.

Once an officer smells the whim of duty there is nothing for you to do, after all, it's his job. We can't have officers who are unable to do their job now can we? Officer safety and all that, we need a legal system that allows them to survive "small" mistakes and errors in judgement like storming peoples houses beating them and taking their property (NOLA) or detaining and threatening (my open carry experience). When I detain people it's called kidnapping or assault, when I break into their homes and take possessions it's called breaking and entering. You don't see any CHP in jail do you? They were caught on video, clear as day. Do you think the same justice system that let them do this is going to let you resist them using the same force they used to illegally assault you in the first place? That would threaten their monopoly, they are the only ones who should be able to protect you from themselves.

Bottom line is they will do what they want to do, and employ lethal force (for anything, no matter how trivial) to make sure it gets done. Either you or them will end up dead (most likely you), and you will be convicted of murder for resisting them (even if their behavior was unlawful in the first place).

The best thing to do is fly under the radar, and do what you have to do to stay safe. These are not your friends and they are not here to protect you or serve you, they are just another protection racket.

 

[Zak Smith]

kel said,

Even if an officer does not have the "right" to do something you cannot legally resist him if he is "just doing his job", which is interpreted to be pretty much anything an officer does.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=177&invol=529
John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529

"Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed."

 

[Lou629]

It sounds to me as if this would be a case where you'd be absolutely "dead right". Months or years later, after the investigation was completed, and the actions of the troops in question were shown to be in error/illegal/un-justified, etc., you'd still be just as deceased as you will ever be.

 

[Mark in California]

If you lived: Insurection against the duly appointed authorities in time of emergency. Possible charge of treason (by terrosist act) against forces of the U.S. Govenment. And then just plain murder.

Chances that you would live thru the fire fight are almost zero. The forces on the ground did engaged in fire fights. Members of the Army Corp of Engineers were fired upon by several persons, the army/reserve forces, I beleave, killed all the aggressors without a moments hesitation

 

[BigFatKen]

It does make me wonder if less than lethal rocks or baseball bats were used, what would happen?

If this continues to happen, we can look to Gandi for non-violent sit-ins so the LEOs can come up en masse and carry off the people sitting down while the snipers on roof tops can pick them off. If you are looting, you are a protestor, if you are protecting what is yours with a gun, you are a sniper; when used like this.

 

[kel]

Zak,
A single Supreme Court decision does not a justice system make. You play on their turf with them holding all the cards, evidence, legal and analytical resources, and it is all tax payer funded. It may be convenient to skip

although they will deny it and quote oft ignored statutes and case law

you are doing a disservice to readers of the thread.

Try open carrying in an urban area of CO, if an officer tries to stop you, disarm you, or force you to identify yourself (some of which might be required under CO law), try ignoring him. Do you think he will drop it or escalate? Experience tells me they will interpret anything but total compliance as escalation, and will "reciprocate" because he knows the real world value of a single court decision.

It's much like arguments of 9MM VS .45 VS .22. I wouldn't carry a .22, but I sure wouldn't volunteer to be hit with it. You take any one of those to the cranium and you will go home in a box. You says it's a .22, I say it's a .45 if not 500 S&W magnum. There is a chance that the justice system might effectively discover the facts and correctly apply the law, but how often do you think that happens? Do you think officers would act the way they do if that were the case? I certainly don't think so, and there is no research out there that I know of that can prove how frequently officers are resisted by force and how often that is ruled as justified, much less how much illegal use of force goes on in totality.

 

[HankB]

If you survived, they would no doubt bring charges against you. At some point during the prosecution they would have to articulate under what law they were breaking into your home without a warrant, hot pursuit, invitation, or probable cause.

Sam Adams 1st response sounds valid - especially if those breaking in were not clearly identifiable as uniformed NOLA PD. Survival might entail a hasty retreat out the back door . . . out of state JBT's will likely adopt a "take no prisoners" attitude after losing one or more of their own.

Police have been shot after breaking into a residence, and the resident - when he survives - has not been successfully prosecuted. Though not the same as the NOLA situation, you can see one instance (written from the LEO's viewpoint) at http://www.mpdfederation.com/david-mack.asp

Note that in the case above the police, with a warrant, had far MORE legal standing than did those in NOLA. Yet the shooter served no time.

IANAL, but my take is that if you survive, or don't conveniently commit suicide by beating yourself to death in your cell, you'll probably be headed for court, but with a good lawyer, should eventually come out OK.

 

[engineer151515]

IANAL, but my take is that if you survive, or don't conveniently commit suicide by beating yourself to death in your cell, you'll probably be headed for court, but with a good lawyer, should eventually come out OK.

$100,000 + later.

 

[gezzer]

In NH you would be defending youself from an armed FELON who was trying to steal your firearms.

 

[Zedicus]

Would you Survive? hard to say but i've seen stranger things happen.

Assuming you did Survive I would guess both the Agency who's troops you killed in self Defense would likely sue (if they don't decide to "erase" you), as would the Family of the deceased.

Best Option in that event would be to Lawyer up (whether you can afford it or not) and pray for the best.

If they decided to gun you down, Shoot back, Retreat to a Safe location when/where possible, then bug out for parts unknown.

 

[ArmedBear]

Discretion is, of course, the better part of valor.

I'm not exactly prepared of equipped to hold off the US Army without help.

 

[Johnny_Yuma]

I think legal action would be unlikely...

I think legal action against your estate would be unlikely...

Which leads me to wonder about the following scenario. If I lived there and a group of people in BDUs approached my house and I refused to open the door but they forced their way in anyway (as happened). If at that point I opened fire with my weapon of choice, lets say a G3 or an M4, what would have happened?

What would have happened? I speculate that those young, well-trained Guardsmen fresh back from urban combat in Iraq would have opened fire with their own weapons of choice. Some of which might have included heavy machine guns, probably some tear gas. You could expect to be flanked while you were keeping your head down and several Guardsmen would likely clear your house in fairly short order. If they were carrying grenades, I'd bet on them using them before making entry.

After they mopped up your remains the rest of the hold-outs in your neighborhood would likely give up without a fight.

The scenario you posited is a losing situation. I believe it's much better to get involved politically NOW than to face the situation you described. If your representatives don't know your views on issues near and dear to your hear, shame on you.

Get committed, get active!

JY

 

[beerslurpy]

I call BS. The doorkickers were out of town SWAT guys brought in from places like CA and NY to replace the NOPD guys that bailed/died/didnt exist.

What I saw of NOLA didnt look like an armored patrol or even a RIF. It looked like a bunch of lightly armored SWAT guys kicking doors and being <ornery>.

If they start getting shot, how many firefights can they send reinforcements to? How many wounded JBTs can they treat for gunshot wounds in a flooded city with no hospitals?

I give good odds to the guy hiding in a concrete house with a G3. Element of surprise + 308 = dead intruders.

However, this raises the question of why you decided to stay behind during a cat 5 storm in a city below sea level.

 

[Beachmaster]

I have read accounts of where people were in their homes, the police broke in with a warrent, homeowners shot incoming police, and the homeowners were let off in court. In most instances, it was because the police either didn 't anounce themselves, or were not dressed as cops.

As for shooting some National Guard troops or a small band of cops trying to break in and confiscate your guns, my take is they deserve to get shot and killed. They took an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the constitution", not an oath to act as "enemies of the state". No Military Person or Cop is required to follow an illegal order, or one that counters our conbstitution, no matter what some would have you believe.

 

[AirForceShooter]

This is where you need neighbors with guns.
They hit your door and from behind them there is the sound of bolts being shoved home, Mossberg 500 slides being racked and when they turn around there are about 20 armed people just standing there.
It all ends there.
The power of the masses at work.

AFS