If You Desire to Have an Attorney and Cannot Afford One, ....

Kleanbore

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We have heard Officers Malloy and Reed, and the guys and gals in Blue Bloods, recite the subject line. It is part of a statement that is read to suspects before they are questioned by police while in custody. The requirement came about as a result of a SCOTUS decision in Miranda v. Arizona (1966), which concerned one Ernesto Miranda, a bad man who had been accused of kidnapping and rape.. He confessed during interrogation, the confession was admitted into evidence at trial, and Miranda was convicted. He appealed his conviction, and SCOTUS ruled that Miranda had not been advised of his Constitutional right against self-incrimination. Miranda was retried, and the second time, his confession was not admitted into evidence at trial. However, he was convicted anyway.

Since that ruling, officers everywhere have been advising suspects of their rights. Here's the whole Miranda Rights statement:

You have the right to remain silent. If you give up the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney and to have an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided to you at no cost. During any questioning, you may decide at any time to exercise these rights, not answer any questions or make any statements. Do you understand these rights as I have read them to you?

The part of the statement that is included in the subject line refers to the right of a defendant to counsel even if he or she cannot afford one. "Cannot afford one" means CANNOT AFFORD one. If the suspect owns a car, a boat, and/or other things that can be sold to raise cash, he will not be provided with the services of a public defender until he has sold them. One other thing: a defendant in need of a public defender may sit in the cooler for quite some time before that attorney shows up.

Years and years ago, there was a TV series known as The Public Defender. Reed Hadley, who had starred in the old movie Zorro's Fighting Legion, played the role of a public defender. The plots were simple, and one learned even less about the law than one could learn by watching Perry Mason, but I enjoy reruns when they come on.

Coupla years or so ago, I took several on-line law courses. The one on Criminal Law was taught by one Steven N. Gosney. Gosney is a public defender in Florida with quite a number of trials and appellate cases under his belt. He is an excellent teacher, and he develops training curricula for public defenders in Florida.

Steve had been writing rather scholarly articles on the law and the criminal justice system in Florida (he says "writing is thinking"), and he put them together in a book, which is now in its second edition. The book contains accounts of wins and losses, and of justice and injustice, and his opinions.

It is not an easy read--one is treated to citation after citation of case law, and arguments and counter arguments. And it is about Florida law. But for one who is interested in the law and in the criminal justice system, it is worth the time. Just be prepared to accept that there are bad judges--including those who text or sleep during trials--who remain on benches; that good guys go to prison; and that bad guys walk.

RECOMMENDED, for those with interest in the subject. Full disclosure: I am not very far into it yet.

More on Miranda:


And still more:
  • To exercise one's right of silence, a defendant must assert it (not just clam up) and remain silent.
  • There is nothing to gain by talking--one cannot expect to explain away his or her actions by discussing them with police.
  • "To have an attorney present during questioning" provides, in and of itself, little or no protection. What one says can and will be used against one in a court of law, even if an attorney is present. One should let the attorney do the talking: "My client reasonably believed that...".
  • SCOTUS as also ruled that under certain circumstances, what one does not say can and will be used against one.
This is not a plug for a pre-paid legal representation contract, but I do think it is a good idea.
 
Funny, I’ve been arrested numerous times and never once had my rights read to me. I have also been refused a public defender because I had a minimum wage job.
You don't receive a "Miranda Admonishment" when arrested unless there is an interrogation accompanying the arrest. A wise LEO will seek to obtain needed information before making the arrest, thus eliminating the need for the admonishment, and preserving the ability to infer "Guilt from Silence" under the holding of Salinas v Texas.

I generally gave the Miranda Admonishment in fewer than 5% of my arrests.
 
I'll ad that if you want incompetent (at best, grossly inexperienced) representation then by all means take that free PD or just out of law school wannabe !
Whether or not one's attorney is a public defender may not be a crucial factor in terms of the skill or experience of the attorney. I would much rather have one of the public defenders with whom Steve Gosney works than, for example, the defense counsel in the Gutierrez trial in New Mexico.

For THR members who are interested in the legal defense of self defense, the issue is something else. Defending thyself defense case is a specialty of specialties. Also, very few criminal defense attorneys on either side have ever come across a civilian case of true "good guy" self defense. Bad guys try that plea when they are caught sticky fingered, and that's what the attorneys see.

Where the defendant with a public defender falls short is in the ability to pay for expert witnesses and private investigators.
 
If the suspect owns a car, a boat, and/or other things that can be sold to raise cash, he will not be provided with the services of a public defender until he has sold them.
Maybe in some jurisdictions, certainly not all.
Here, the judge asks them if they're employed and if so what their monthly income is.
They have a chart they go by and I've seen some people qualify that had me shaking my head. Nothing is ever mentioned about assets they can sell off to hire counsel.

One other thing: a defendant in need of a public defender may sit in the cooler for quite some time before that attorney shows up.
Absolutely they can and often do.
They can exercise their right not to speak without an attorney present, but that doesn't stop the police from making an arrest if they think they've got the evidence to do so.

I'll ad that if you want incompetent (at best, grossly inexperienced) representation then by all means take that free PD or just out of law school wannabe !
Yeah, everybody knows we're not real lawyers. ;)
 
I'll ad that if you want incompetent (at best, grossly inexperienced) representation then by all means take that free PD or just out of law school wannabe !
Let me assure you that not all public defenders are inexperienced or incompetent. For example, I am currently a public defender & I’ve been involved in the active practice of litigation for over 20 years. In my small (4 county, probably <100k total population) district, I don’t think we have a pub def with less than 5 years experience.

Yes, the PD office is popular with new law school grads. So is the prosecutor’s office.

I’ll add that @Kleanbore and @RickD427 pretty much nailed the broad outlines down.

Now, if y’all will excuse me, I have a jury trial tomorrow.
 
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You don't receive a "Miranda Admonishment" when arrested unless there is an interrogation accompanying the arrest. A wise LEO will seek to obtain needed information before making the arrest, thus eliminating the need for the admonishment, and preserving the ability to infer "Guilt from Silence" under the holding of Salinas v Texas.

I generally gave the Miranda Admonishment in fewer than 5% of my arrests.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that I didn’t need Miranda if I wasn’t interrogated? Is being taken in a back room of a house that was raided and questioned considered interrogation? How about when they brought me downtown and questioned me for three hours? I was arrested both those times, the charges are on my record, I was never advised of my rights. Am I missing something?
 
I'll ad that if you want incompetent (at best, grossly inexperienced) representation then by all means take that free PD or just out of law school wannabe !
I have to respectfully disagree with this. As a group, Public Defenders have done a much better job of testing my cases than have members of the private defense bar. They are a "High Volume" business and don't give much personal attention to their clients, but they know the law and quickly become adept (because they "drink from the legal firehose") at spotting weaknesses in the prosecution cases.

Although I have met some very professional and skilled private defense attorneys, most fall short of their Public Defender counterparts. I've seen several private defense attorneys do an excellent job of prosecuting their clients. I've never seen a PD do the same.
 
If I understand correctly, you are saying that I didn’t need Miranda if I wasn’t interrogated? Is being taken in a back room of a house that was raided and questioned considered interrogation? How about when they brought me downtown and questioned me for three hours? I was arrested both those times, the charges are on my record, I was never advised of my rights. Am I missing something?
That is correct. There are two "prongs" that have to be satisfied before the Miranda Admonishment is required: 1) The subject must have been subjected to an oppressive police environment. This traditionally has been understood to mean that a person was in custody, but recent case law has relaxed that view. and 2) The LEO must be seeking admissions or confessions from the subject.

Interviewing a subject at the scene of a search warrant could go either way, depending on how the circumstances would have appeared to have created criminal liability on the part of the person being interviewed.

IMHO, an interview lasting three hours, and conducted inside a police facility, would require the admonishment to be given. But I had a colleague who requested a murder suspect to come to the station for an interview. He requested the counter personnel to "treat him real good, offer him a cup of coffee, but watch him like a hawk because I'm gonna arrest him when we're done." He was interviewed in a very secure part of the station, but was deliberately treated as a "guest". Following the interview, he was arrested and booked. He claimed a Miranda violation at trial. The Appellate Court found that, under the circumstances at the station, that he was not subjected to an "oppressive police environment" and therefore no admonishment was needed.
 
If I understand correctly, you are saying that I didn’t need Miranda if I wasn’t interrogated? Is being taken in a back room of a house that was raided and questioned considered interrogation? How about when they brought me downtown and questioned me for three hours? I was arrested both those times, the charges are on my record, I was never advised of my rights. Am I missing something?
I won't speak directly to your situation, but the first part of your statement is accurate.
We see television shows where officers arrest someone and read them their rights while cuffing them. Maybe that happens sometimes, but not generally. The way it works here in a normal situation is that they are taken to the jail and before questioning, they have to sign a statement of rights form, where they initial by every right and then sign the bottom indicating whether they agree to talk to the police or whether they want an attorney present.

It's important to note that if a person's rights are violated and the court deems that they were, that doesn't mean the case is dismissed. It just means that the particular evidence that was exposed by the illegal questioning doesn't get to come in, unless of course it meets one of the exceptions. For example the old "inevitable discovery" exception. If the court deems that the police would have discovered the evidence even without the improper questioning, it often gets in anyway. A decent lawyer should of course vehemently object so as to preserve the matter for appeal, but most of the time it stands.
 
Thank you for this discussion--very interesting. And good to hear from professionals, instead of people speculating.
In my circuit, lower Alabama, we don’t have a PD. Our circuit has established a panel of lawyers and judges who actually actively seek out lawyers who will agree to do criminal work on a contract basis. It’s been that way for years now.

Before I entered private practice I was a prosecutor for approximately 3 years handling all manner of cases. I’ve been a contract-for hire criminal defense lawyer for going on 20+ years now. That’s in addition to my regular civil practice (and my other non-litigation matters). Each month I bill the state of Alabama for my time representing the “indigent.” My going rate as set by the state of Alabama …. $70/hr. And the defendant has to repay the state. I’ve lost track of how many trials I’ve had. Our system seems to work - the more experienced lawyers are contracted for the work. And 4 out of 5 days a week are spent on criminal matters by our judges.
 
As Alexander Pope noted 300 years ago, a little learning is a dangerous thing. Due in part to the entertainment industry, many have the erroneous impression that if they are not mirandized, their statements may not be used against them. As noted previously, timing, setting and circumstances bear heavily on this issue. Police attend classes on the subject, some of which may be taught by local judges. The laws change and analyses change, so if this area of law interests you, make sure your information is current, and beware of internet lawyers bearing gifts.
 
Reading this thread has me wondering if moderators could possibly cull posts replete with completely bogus information, non-factual facts, and outright lies.

There ought to be a law . . .
 
Good put. That had never occurred to me.

We could have a whole thread on misconceptions gleaned from entertainment sources.
Yes. Crimes are rarely solved within an hour and jury trials never go that fast. You might be surprised how much of the potential juror is influenced by modern entertainment. We have to tease those misconceptions out during voir dire.
 
We could have a whole thread on misconceptions gleaned from entertainment sources.
We often do, about flubs in firearm usage and the like. The former usually "lasting" longer than the latter for being THR on-topic.

wondering if moderators could possibly cull posts
Our skilled team of mods actually does this frequently; and is part of the harsh restrictions imposed upon the Legal forum.
Lies, and the old saw go, have orbited the earth three times before the Truth has had its morning coffee.
The frustration being in how many cleave to the falsehoods depicted in media rather than be informed by the actual facts.
 
You might be surprised how much of the potential juror is influenced by modern entertainment.
And I have taken advantage of that fact on multiple occasions.
I've harped on fingerprint analysis not being done on different items of evidence until I was blue in the face, knowing full well that things are very rarely fingerprinted. But the jury in front of me watches CSI or Law and Order, so they think it's routine.
Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.
 
Thanks. I figured somebody would know.
Unfortunately, the age of those links means they are all dead. The first to the "specific post" goes to a xenForo login. The one for Mas goes to a "for sale" page. The member's interview also goes to a xenForo login.
IOW, that old link is useless and can be deleted.
 
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I had a pretty good legal head before, but I just finished 1L, and now I believe even more strongly, if you need a lawyer, you need the RIGHT lawyer. Having taken law school-level Criminal Law, I told a bunch of the people sitting around me that if they took my concealed carry class, I would give them a FAR better understanding of the laws of self-defense than that class did. ANY lawyer will not work when you need a lawyer after a defensive shooting. Just because they passed the bar exam doesn't mean much at all in this area.

The problem I always had with Miranda is it seems to leave out a lot of things. Why aren't the police required to tell you things like; "You do not have to consent to a search. If you give consent to a search you may rescind that consent at any time." If it is the responsibility of the police to educate suspects, why don't they have to educate them on EVERYTHING?
 
…The problem I always had with Miranda is it seems to leave out a lot of things. Why aren't the police required to tell you things like; "You do not have to consent to a search. If you give consent to a search you may rescind that consent at any time." If it is the responsibility of the police to educate suspects, why don't they have to educate them on EVERYTHING?
Because Miranda v. Arizona dealt with an interrogation, not a search, and SCOTUS answers the question in front of it, not more. Search law is a related but separate body of law.
 
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