So the other day there were some (small) animals fighting noisily outside of my house, and they awakened me early. I wanted them to stop fighting and to go to somewhere else if they wanted to fight, so I grabbed my airsoft gun (classic army m4) and proceeded to go outside to chase them away. I was walking stealthily with the gun at high ready, safety on, finger off the trigger. When I came to an outbuilding, (like a small barn without doors but large door openings), one of the animals leaped out right in front of my face in such a sudden manner that I was quite startled. When this happened, I was the mindset of threat identified, time to engage. However, when I tried to shoot, the safety was on. It took what felt like almost a second for me to figure this out, disengage the safety and start shooting. This made me think about what I would do in a real situation, and hence this post. So fire away, what do y'all think?
In what condition should you gun be when clearing areas?
- Thread starter gondorian
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I don't think a smart person goes outside with a gun to deal with a problem unless it's worth their life to do it.
If you're at that point you had better have put enough training time in with your weapon that you perform a safety off as muscle memory on your pistol/rifle/shotgun.
If you're at that point you had better have put enough training time in with your weapon that you perform a safety off as muscle memory on your pistol/rifle/shotgun.
Six
Member
I think practice and muscle memory will make it largely a moot point for most people in most situations.
The time you take to positively identify the threat could also be used to switch any safety off. And vice versa.
If the safety is already off and you are at a low/high ready, you might just squeeze the trigger by accident or out of surprise before you have identified the threat.
(Yes I know, no one here would ever do such a silly thing. It's just other people who do it.)
Me checking on a noise in the car port does not have the same likelihood of an actual threat as a SWAT team clearing a house.
So FWIW, when I check on bumps in the night, the Glock stays holstered.
Only once have I grabbed the 870, for that case there was a identified threat. The safety remained on, and the muzzle pointed at the ground.
The time you take to positively identify the threat could also be used to switch any safety off. And vice versa.
If the safety is already off and you are at a low/high ready, you might just squeeze the trigger by accident or out of surprise before you have identified the threat.
(Yes I know, no one here would ever do such a silly thing. It's just other people who do it.)
Me checking on a noise in the car port does not have the same likelihood of an actual threat as a SWAT team clearing a house.
So FWIW, when I check on bumps in the night, the Glock stays holstered.
Only once have I grabbed the 870, for that case there was a identified threat. The safety remained on, and the muzzle pointed at the ground.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
If you are certain that there is no real threat -- that you're just out to stifle a noise irritant -- then safety first. No reason to have an animal startle you and you negligently squeeze off a shot, or you trip over the kid's tricycle and shoot yourself.
If you are investigating a suspicious noise, then do not venture out of your position of cover. "Clearing" houses and property is a totally losing proposition. Get to a vantage point of safety where you can observe and wait. Then you can keep your gun on safe until you detect the approach of your invader. Defense beats offense 10-to-1. Go looking for trouble and you're likely to die. Let trouble come to you and you're likely to live. It's about that simple.
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I believe it was James Thurber who said, "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that's where he is." To this I'd add, he who takes an airsoft gun to solve a problem had better be sure it isn't a very serious problem!
If you are investigating a suspicious noise, then do not venture out of your position of cover. "Clearing" houses and property is a totally losing proposition. Get to a vantage point of safety where you can observe and wait. Then you can keep your gun on safe until you detect the approach of your invader. Defense beats offense 10-to-1. Go looking for trouble and you're likely to die. Let trouble come to you and you're likely to live. It's about that simple.
.....
I believe it was James Thurber who said, "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that's where he is." To this I'd add, he who takes an airsoft gun to solve a problem had better be sure it isn't a very serious problem!
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hardworker
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Since it was an airsoft gun and not a real gun I'd have had safety off ready to rock and roll on some stray dogs
mljdeckard
Member
I am in a bit of conflict over this with the army. They ADD safety manipulation to the four rules. The rule that matters to me is; "Finger out of the trigger guard until the sights are aligned on the target and you are ready to shoot."
I had a friendly discussion with a range instructor a couple of weeks ago about this. He was sure that it was best to flick the safety on and off as you identified targets. I showed him some flaws in the idea. According to doctrine, when your M-9 locks empty, you should reach back to the safety on the locked slide and flick it to safe before you drop the magazine and insert a fresh one. I showed him that other pistols, like a Glock, don't have a manual safety at all, and many others, like a 1911, don't have a slide-mounted positive safety and can't be manipulated at all while the slide is to the rear. I also saw no reason to safe a weapon during an emergency reload, because you are still fighting. Flicking the safety off on the rearward slide, changing mags, dropping the slide, and returning the lever to fire adds too many steps. We agreed that:
1: Our troops would be better off with a less complicated manual of arms.
2: When on army ranges we play by army rules,
And 3: When we are fighting, we use what works. For ME, I take the weapon off safe as I am raising it to the target. I put it back on as I am lowering the weapon.
I had a friendly discussion with a range instructor a couple of weeks ago about this. He was sure that it was best to flick the safety on and off as you identified targets. I showed him some flaws in the idea. According to doctrine, when your M-9 locks empty, you should reach back to the safety on the locked slide and flick it to safe before you drop the magazine and insert a fresh one. I showed him that other pistols, like a Glock, don't have a manual safety at all, and many others, like a 1911, don't have a slide-mounted positive safety and can't be manipulated at all while the slide is to the rear. I also saw no reason to safe a weapon during an emergency reload, because you are still fighting. Flicking the safety off on the rearward slide, changing mags, dropping the slide, and returning the lever to fire adds too many steps. We agreed that:
1: Our troops would be better off with a less complicated manual of arms.
2: When on army ranges we play by army rules,
And 3: When we are fighting, we use what works. For ME, I take the weapon off safe as I am raising it to the target. I put it back on as I am lowering the weapon.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Gondorian, you need to do some training. I agree with Six - basic manipulation skills and working from the low ready should serve you well.
mljdeckard, agree with you on that. FWIW, when I trained up at Benning in 2008, that was not what was shown.
I agree with Six - basic manipulation skills and working from the low ready should serve you well.mljdeckard, agree with you on that. FWIW, when I trained up at Benning in 2008, that was not what was shown.
Floppy_D
Member In Memoriam
Don't try to exceed your level of training. Engaging a couple possums with an airsoft gun doesn't really count as CQC training, even if the "threat" was "identified." Learning your manual of arms would be a great starting point, too.Gondorian said:
Do 500 "ready up" drills where you go from high ready (safety on, finger off trigger) to shooting 1 rd, scan back on safe (finger off trigger again.)
It takes about 15 minutes to do 100 (at least that what it takes me to do 100 draws of a pistol with scanning). I shake me arms out and clear my head for a few seconds in between each 10 reps. Do this for a 5 day work week and you will have the 500 repetitions to have burned it into a new neural pathway (what most would call "muscle memory").
It takes about 15 minutes to do 100 (at least that what it takes me to do 100 draws of a pistol with scanning). I shake me arms out and clear my head for a few seconds in between each 10 reps. Do this for a 5 day work week and you will have the 500 repetitions to have burned it into a new neural pathway (what most would call "muscle memory").
Going from low to high ready IOT to engage, manipulate the safety. As long as the target is identified and the weapon is pointing at it, safety remains off (this includes reloads). Resafe when bringing it down. I've had instructors tell me to leave it off when going back down to low ready. This is lazy way out of a training issue that can result in an ND when the trigger catches on kit and puts a round in someone's foot.
DFW1911
Member
I've had similar encounters with raccoons around here. I'm guessing there are about a million of them...
Anyway, I have an Airsoft styled on the Ruger P345 that holds 16 "rounds." Let me tell you, that thing is excellent critter repellent!
I wish I had a POV camera one particular evening wherein I had a running battle with an o'possum. Let's just call it a draw
For the life of me, I cannot figure why they are called Airsoft. I guess it's more marketable than "Airhurtslikeh****whenyougetnailedwithone," but Marketing was not my chosen field of study, so take it FWIW.
Seriously, if you go out at night with anything that resembles a firearm, and these Airsofts do, you may be walking into a potential ugly situation.
I can totally appreciate the need to get critters, just know your environment, how your neighbors are likely to respond, and don't forget that your city probably has animal control who can handle the situation and / or just get some live traps (or snares if needed, they're not too fun to use).
Anyway, I have an Airsoft styled on the Ruger P345 that holds 16 "rounds." Let me tell you, that thing is excellent critter repellent!
I wish I had a POV camera one particular evening wherein I had a running battle with an o'possum. Let's just call it a draw
For the life of me, I cannot figure why they are called Airsoft. I guess it's more marketable than "Airhurtslikeh****whenyougetnailedwithone," but Marketing was not my chosen field of study, so take it FWIW.
Seriously, if you go out at night with anything that resembles a firearm, and these Airsofts do, you may be walking into a potential ugly situation.
I can totally appreciate the need to get critters, just know your environment, how your neighbors are likely to respond, and don't forget that your city probably has animal control who can handle the situation and / or just get some live traps (or snares if needed, they're not too fun to use).
If there is reason to believe that a real threat is likely, then the only safety I'd use is my finger, which stays outside of the trigger guard until I identify the target and make the final decision to fire. I train to fire directly from the "finger-safe" position along the frame above the trigger, and only keep my finger on the trigger while firing in bursts, after which my finger always goes back onto the frame. Obviously the purpose of this habit is to make shooting a voluntary act at all times, protecting against involuntary flinching or squeezing due to surprise (such as tripping over something, for example ).
While the repeated toggling of a manual safety can also be ingrained as a safe-handling habit, I don't think it is necessary, and it may well be slower and more prone to error. Besides, some guns have safeties in different locations and/or safeties that are operated in a different manner (and many handguns have no manual safety at all, of course), so I personally prefer to stick with a system that works the same with all guns.
).While the repeated toggling of a manual safety can also be ingrained as a safe-handling habit, I don't think it is necessary, and it may well be slower and more prone to error. Besides, some guns have safeties in different locations and/or safeties that are operated in a different manner (and many handguns have no manual safety at all, of course), so I personally prefer to stick with a system that works the same with all guns.
The Bushmaster
Member
Empty, in your holster, magazine in its pouch. You want to rephrase the question again?...:banghead:
easyg
Member
I carry a Glock.
So it's always....
Gun ready, finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot, no manual safety to even think about.
MedWheeler
Member
Since not everyone in my house sleeps together, I will be out and about the house if I believe someone has breached our peace and safety. Only one of my three primary "grab" handguns even has a safety, and it is not on. All three guns are either DAO, or DA/SA. So, to answer, hammer down on live round, safety off (if there is one), and finger alongside triggerguard. For what it's worth, though, I do have extensive training (and experience) in clearing.
mljdeckard
Member
It was on the SRM range. The RSOs were checking everyone to make sure that their pistols were on safe, slide to the rear before reloading on 'ready up' drills.
I didn't like it, but I wasn't silly. One guy in my unit mouthed off and got booted from the range. (The guy is an idiot, we were relieved.)
I didn't like it, but I wasn't silly. One guy in my unit mouthed off and got booted from the range. (The guy is an idiot, we were relieved.)
Adding more info to the situation, it wasn't dark, just around dawn at about 5 A.M. and the neighbors are ok with my airsoft. The use of a airsoft gun to solve this problem was very appropriate because I knew immediately that the noisemaker was a well know problem animal that is elusive to animal control, but was not an actual threat to my person, just to my ability to sleep in on the weekend.
Training is the main reason I started this thread, because I realized that when I airsoft, which happens frequently, I am training my body and mind to perform a certain way with Ar15 pattern guns. Because the ergos of good airsoft and real steal guns are so similar, whatever I do as habit with my airsoft gun, whether it is appropriate or not, WILL translate to actual firearms handling. This is why some recommend getting a good airsoft version of you carry gun and practicing presenting it or whatever.
After thinking about it, I realized that the reason I didn't automatically disengage the safety before firing is because when I airsoft I usually disengage the safety before I enter a close-in area where there are likely to be enemies, or when I see enemies in far out areas. Based on the responses in this thread and some common sense, I think that this is not a good methodology to have with a real firearm. From now on, I think I will start keeping my safety on when airsofting, and do some practice drill in disengaging the safety quickly while acquiring a target, that way I can practice doing things correctly instead of incorrectly. Anyways, thanks for the insight guys.
Training is the main reason I started this thread, because I realized that when I airsoft, which happens frequently, I am training my body and mind to perform a certain way with Ar15 pattern guns. Because the ergos of good airsoft and real steal guns are so similar, whatever I do as habit with my airsoft gun, whether it is appropriate or not, WILL translate to actual firearms handling. This is why some recommend getting a good airsoft version of you carry gun and practicing presenting it or whatever.
After thinking about it, I realized that the reason I didn't automatically disengage the safety before firing is because when I airsoft I usually disengage the safety before I enter a close-in area where there are likely to be enemies, or when I see enemies in far out areas. Based on the responses in this thread and some common sense, I think that this is not a good methodology to have with a real firearm. From now on, I think I will start keeping my safety on when airsofting, and do some practice drill in disengaging the safety quickly while acquiring a target, that way I can practice doing things correctly instead of incorrectly. Anyways, thanks for the insight guys.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
You may want to get a copy of "Green eyes, Black rifles" for some decent reading on how to do things with your rifle/airsoft. And I think you are correct - it's always good to use the same consistent actions and manipulations, regardless. Many bad habits with firearms sadly end with a Boom!
T. Bracker
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It is airsoft, and you knew it was critters - what do you think? If it is serious and you think it is thugs, then stay inside, lock the door, arm yourself with something other than airsoft and call the police.
crossrhodes
Member
As always. A lot of good info by people who have "real world" event experience or training. I'll put my 2 cents in and say train for your situations, what ever they maybe, and train often. For MOUT (clearing) it was safety off and trigger finger out of the trigger until you acquire a target. Patrolling down the street it was safety on and finger out of the trigger. If your sitting in your house and hear a bump in the night, it's safety on and let the threat come to you. Some one who doesn't train, or at least war game it in your mind, has a good chance of hurting/killing some one they didn't intend to.
I love air soft. I used it as a teaching tool for my kids when they were just starting to shoot, then went to 22's and worked up as they grew.
I love air soft. I used it as a teaching tool for my kids when they were just starting to shoot, then went to 22's and worked up as they grew.
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We've heard a lot recently about the dangers of clearing. Here's an article that concerns a real-life example:
More at the link. Offers support for the "stay put" approach.
More at the link. Offers support for the "stay put" approach.
Silvanus
Member
I don't have/like handguns with safeties and with rifles it depends on the specific model. With the MP5 or my AR15 the safety will only be disengaged immediately before a shot is fired. That's also the way I train with it. If I was using an AK I would disengage the safety at all times because the safety lever is not very easily accessible.
Lucky Derby
Member
My HD battery consists of DA revolvers, 1911, Rem 870, and Win 92 lever. DA revolvers have no safety, keep finger out of trigger until ready to fire. 1911 is kept condition 1. I disengage the safety when a threat is identified and then put finger in trigger. 870 and lever action are kept with full mag, empty chamber and safety off on the 870. No safety on the lever. I chamber only when a threat is identified and keep finger off of trigger until ready to fire.
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