Infamy of .38 Spl

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Lethality is not a relevant performance parameter for self defense.
IMO, this is where expanding ammunition comes into play. LRN (or other non-expanding) bullets will surely kill someone if they poke a hole through something important, but the person may not realize they're dying. I have read incidents of people shot with relatively low-power non-expanding handgun ammo who didn't even realized that they were shot until later. This is a very bad thing.

Attackers who don't know they have been shot, may be dying, but they don't realize it and that is very bad for a defender. That means that the attacker keeps doing whatever he was doing because there's no particular incentive to stop doing it. Presumably whatever they are doing was pretty horrible from the defender's standpoint or no shots would have been fired.

My theory about expanding self-defense ammunition is that one of the major benefits is a "notification effect". The increased deceleration and larger temporary stretch cavity due to expansion applies more impact force to the attacker and creates a "blunt trauma effect" respectively.

A bullet is a combination of a penetrating wound (like a stab wound) and a blunt trauma effect (like getting hit with an impact weapon). The straight penetration (permanent hole) is the stab effect and the temporary stretch cavity is the blunt trauma effect. The penetration is what is most likely to make the wound lethal, but if there is very little temporary stretch cavity, a distracted (or chemically impaired) attacker may not notice the injury. The blunt trauma effect isn't as likely to be lethal (although it can be devastating to tissue that won't stretch--things like livers and brains) but the attacker is quite likely to notice it.

Rearranging priorities is very important. Some years ago, the results of a large batch of FBI wound channel data was put online and I did some wound channel volume calculations from it. Turns out that a bullet from a typical service pistol caliber destroys 2-3.5 ounces of tissue. As a percentage of a 180lb person, that's about 0.07% to 0.12%. Said another way, a round from a typical service pistol caliber leaves a person 99.88% to 99.93% intact. Breaking a person down to ineffectiveness a tenth of a percent at a time is a daunting task. But if his priorities turn to saving his own life by breaking off the attack and seeking medical help, even if he turns out, in the final analysis, to not be especially badly injured, that's a win.

People are very prone to having their priorities rearranged. The vast majority of "stops" are psychological in nature. But there are still cases when the attacker isn't rational for some reason and that means we don't want to give up too much penetration. We want a balance of penetration and expansion--pretty much just what the FBI requires for their ammunition.
 
Another mild non-recoiling non-magnum offering in a small revolver is the 44 spl ..
This is a pic of a Charter Boomer compared to a Ruger LCR357 with a compact grip .. both weight the same 16.2 oz
9C63BA2C-3E81-420D-962C-E4213D72A582.jpeg
 
38 Spl. is a good round as long as there is good shot placement, shot placement is always the key to stopping a threat, no matter what caliber you choose.
Which is why cops back in the 40s and 50s referred to training as target practice, Scoring rings on the FBI targets were smaller than today's target because the perceived need for more precise shot placement with the .38 was more demanding than Col Cooper's .45 center of mass mantra
 
Quite simply, with most of today's .357 Magnum shelf offerings, .38 vs .357 is... a futile debate.
 
I would not knowingly stand there and let someone shoot me with a 38 (it hurts) but if it happens again I am going to shoot back.
 
Here's an example of what I was talking about with penetration wounds being deadly but not necessarily being very noticeable.



This guy gets stabbed multiple times but continues fighting. He doesn't try to withdraw and basically maintains an aggressive posture right until the point that he falls over. Non-expanding ammo that is on the low end for power can act pretty similar to a knife wound in that it penetrates but causes very little of the notification effect that a temporary cavity (which mimics blunt trauma) will have.

Fortunately for the defender (I'm going to call him the defender for the sake of discussion without trying to justify that assertion) the attacker isn't particularly effective and doesn't appear to be armed. He certainly had time to do some damage between the time he was knifed and the time he finally fell down.
 
I’m not in to handguns except I have a thing for Colt Snubbbies and .380’s that are as large as a compact 9MM Luger. I also don’t practice as much as I should and don’t plink, I just don’t enjoy it. I also hate to carry, but when I do it’s a Cobra, Detective Special, Sig P232 or CZ 82(9MM Makaro) or 83.

The question about being adequate or not never crosses my mind. I‘be never shot +P through any of them and know I never will through the Colts.


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Much of this myth has to do with the fact that police agencies dropped the .38 spl.
Reasons? 6 rounds not enough, revolvers too slow to reload, .38 spl. does not do well shooting through car bodies, windshields and barriers.
Criminals that are better armed with way more rounds in their firearm.
A well placed 158 grain lead bullet will kill an adult human with no trouble. 6 misses will not.
A CCW holder can still use .38spl effectively for self defense.
 
I think any time a more powerful cartridge that shoots the same size bullet is developed, the former will be labeled as inadequate by some people. However there are limits. I like the 460 magnum, but I would never label the 454 Casull or 45 Colt inadequate, depending on the target of course.

We should also consider documented cases. As has been pointed out the 38 Special went through a long evolution before landing where it is, and so has the ammunition and bullets used. I believe hitting a target in a vital area is the most important part, but bullet construction has to come into consideration also. So in general, I agree with all the points JohnKSa makes.

With a longer life span you will have much stronger statistics with a much larger sample. But how much documentation and video surveillance survives from the past where we can analyze how a person shot with 38s reacts? We have the reports from officers back in the day who actually used them, but when you are in a gun fight, there is no "good enough" for effectiveness, nor is there "fast enough" when discussing ending a fight. If you are fighting for your life you want to be victorious as quickly as possible. Perception gets skewed. I have never fired a shot in defense, but on two separate occasions, I did draw my gun with the expectation of having to shoot. I was utterly blown away at how much time seemed to slow down, and how much my thinking sped up. I attribute this to a massive adrenaline dump, as once the situation was resolved my hands began shaking a bit. My point is that we need to keep the perspective of police officers in mind when considering the stories of the past, and even times the old 38 Spl LRN bullets were effective, the officer involved may have had a very different idea on time to stop an attack than an outside observer did.

Accounts from people who have actually been shot are very useful. Current day video surveillance is also extremely useful for analysis.

I think back to when I was first starting on shooting sports, and the general notion was that larger caliber bullets were better stoppers than smaller diameter. I often heard Cooper referenced on this, and it makes sense to me that if a bullet can't expand, and may only deflect and deform, a larger hole is better. A larger hole is still better, but we have to consider modern ammo when making a self determination on what cartridge to rely on. To ignore it is ignoring a significant part of the self defense equation IMO, and may cause a person to discard a perfectly effective cartridge.

But fortunately, there are a lot of options.
 
Master Blaster,

It was not a myth that the .38 Special lead round nose was a failure as a self defense or police round. Too many departments dropped the round in favor of +P .38 Special loads after their street officers complained about poor performance. Rounds like the 158 grain LSWCHP and 110 grain +P+ proved more effective on the street than the old lead round nose.
Note that the NYPD for political reasons wanted to stick with the .38 Special and was fighting with the very powerful police union over the LRN. The NYPD tried the NON EXPANDING semi wadcutter and found it no more effective. On the other hand, the FBI, MIAMI DADE Police, Chicago PD and many other agencies switched to the SWCHP +P round with generally good results.

In the 1990's, I worked for the INS. When I joined, they had switched over from the 110 grain .38 Special +P+ to the .357 magnum 110 grain jhp because of the hit or miss record for the +P+ .Special ammo which was often called the TREASURY load. The 110 grain .357 ammo was about 200 fps faster and all the problems went away with its adoption. The hotter 125 grain jhp and 145 grain Silvertip ammo was optional to carry for Border Patrol, if you could qualify with it. We eventually went with a very hot loading in .40 S&W because we wanted a 12 shot .357!.

A well placed 158 grain lead bullet will kill an adult human with no trouble.
So can a .32ACP, do you want to use one instead of a more robust and effective round?


Also, 6 misses was not always the case. It has been documented from actual police shootings that 6 HITS did not stop a threat. That should be no surprise.as the U.S. Army found out that the .38 Colt Long round was very ineffective at stopping Moro insurgents in the Philippines and lead directly to the U.S. Army testing and then adopting the .45ACP.

Modern ammo is much better. I use HORNADY 110 grain FTX Critical Defense in my alloy framed and 5 shot .38 Special revolvers and use FEDERAL HST 130 grain jhp ammo in my S&W model 15's. I even like it in my RUGER Speed Six.

Jim
 
Master Blaster,

It was not a myth that the .38 Special lead round nose was a failure as a self defense or police round. Too many departments dropped the round in favor of +P .38 Special loads after their street officers complained about poor performance. Rounds like the 158 grain LSWCHP and 110 grain +P+ proved more effective on the street than the old lead round nose.
Note that the NYPD for political reasons wanted to stick with the .38 Special and was fighting with the very powerful police union over the LRN. The NYPD tried the NON EXPANDING semi wadcutter and found it no more effective. On the other hand, the FBI, MIAMI DADE Police, Chicago PD and many other agencies switched to the SWCHP +P round with generally good results.

In the 1990's, I worked for the INS. When I joined, they had switched over from the 110 grain .38 Special +P+ to the .357 magnum 110 grain jhp because of the hit or miss record for the +P+ .Special ammo which was often called the TREASURY load. The 110 grain .357 ammo was about 200 fps faster and all the problems went away with its adoption. The hotter 125 grain jhp and 145 grain Silvertip ammo was optional to carry for Border Patrol, if you could qualify with it. We eventually went with a very hot loading in .40 S&W because we wanted a 12 shot .357!.

So can a .32ACP, do you want to use one instead of a more robust and effective round?


Also, 6 misses was not always the case. It has been documented from actual police shootings that 6 HITS did not stop a threat. That should be no surprise.as the U.S. Army found out that the .38 Colt Long round was very ineffective at stopping Moro insurgents in the Philippines and lead directly to the U.S. Army testing and then adopting the .45ACP.

Modern ammo is much better. I use HORNADY 110 grain FTX Critical Defense in my alloy framed and 5 shot .38 Special revolvers and use FEDERAL HST 130 grain jhp ammo in my S&W model 15's. I even like it in my RUGER Speed Six.

Jim
Correct me of I'm wrong... but isn't comparing .38 Colt to .38 S&W Spl like comparing .38 Spl to .357 Magnum ??
 
Correct me of I'm wrong... but isn't comparing .38 Colt to .38 S&W Spl like comparing .38 Spl to .357 Magnum ??

There is actually not much difference between 38 LONG Colt and standard velocity 158 grain 38 Special. And the difference between 38 SHORT Colt and that 38 Special load is not very large either. But 357 Magnum is about 2.5 times more powerful than standard velocity 38 Special, in terms of kinetic energy. So no, the old US Army 38 Long Colt load is very comparable to the 38 Special 158 grain RNL load.

Wikipedia gives 777 ft/sec muzzle velocity for a 150 grain bullet for 38 Long Colt, yielding 200 ft/lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle.

Wikipedia does not give figures for the standard velocity 158 grain 38 Special load. "ballistics101.com" gives 755 ft/sec muzzle velocity for that load, also yielding 200 ft/lbs of kinetic energy.

(The above figures sound much too close together to me, but I do not have any cartridge reference books here at my computer.)

Wikipedia gives 1,240 ft/sec muzzle velocity for a 158 grain bullet for .357 Magnum, yielding 540 ft/lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle.
 
There is actually not much difference between 38 LONG Colt and standard velocity 158 grain 38 Special. And the difference between 38 SHORT Colt and that 38 Special load is not very large either. But 357 Magnum is about 2.5 times more powerful than standard velocity 38 Special, in terms of kinetic energy. So no, the old US Army 38 Long Colt load is very comparable to the 38 Special 158 grain RNL load.

Wikipedia gives 777 ft/sec muzzle velocity for a 150 grain bullet for 38 Long Colt, yielding 200 ft/lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle.

Wikipedia does not give figures for the standard velocity 158 grain 38 Special load. "ballistics101.com" gives 755 ft/sec muzzle velocity for that load, also yielding 200 ft/lbs of kinetic energy.

(The above figures sound much too close together to me, but I do not have any cartridge reference books here at my computer.)

Wikipedia gives 1,240 ft/sec muzzle velocity for a 158 grain bullet for .357 Magnum, yielding 540 ft/lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle.

I have to respectfully disagree. The extra case volume of 38 Special will result in significant increase in performance, especially with our modern powders that are available. There is data for reloading 38 Special to 38 Special pressures (not +P ) pressure that will throw a 158 gr bullet to nearly 1000 fps from a service size revolver. Buffalo Bore sells standard pressure 38 Special ammunition that chronos a 158gr bullet at 979 fps and a 125gr bullet at 1078 fps from a 4-inch revolver. That gives 38 Special more than 50% more kinetic energy than traditional 38 Long Colt loadings. 38 Long Colt is so old and became obsolete so long ago it does not even have a SAAMI spec it was a black-powder only cartridge replaced by the 38 Special before SAAMI even existed. And although 38 Special was a black powder cartridge also it became a smokeless cartridge almost from its inception, within a year of initial production.

So even if you willing to load 38 Long Colt with modern smokeless powders to the same pressure as 38 Special the ~15% case volume advantage is always going to put 38 Special ahead of 38 Long Colt for the same peak pressure. There are reasons its been obsolete for well over 100 years now.
 
Mosin and MCB,

Come on, the .357 magnum!

Reloading and producing hot .38-44 loads to compare with .38 Special lead round nose is illogical. Not everyone is a reloader or has a .38-44 or .357 magnum to shoot these loads in. Also, it does not address the failure of the old lead round nose ammo. If you took that bullet and loaded it as a .357 round, it would still be ineffective. It always had a history of overpenetration, even at standard velocities and would barely expand, even at the 1250 fps velocity of a .357.
When police departments switched to the higher performance +P ammo, the failure of the .38 Special was corrected. I doubt most of the readers of this site would consider a mid size, 6 shot .38 Special loaded with 125, 130 or 158 grain +P hollow point ammo as inadequate. It would not equal a .357, a 9mm. or .40 or .45, but so what, it would be more capable than the lead round nose .38 Special.

When police departments then switched to 9m.m. semi autoes, it was usually for the 15 shot magazines and quick reloads, not a failure to stop record of .38 Special +P ammo.

By the way, one reason so many police departments dropped the .38 Special was the accelerated wear of the S&W K-frame revolvers like the model 10 and 15 when shooting a steady diet of +P ammo. I do not see how the high velocity Buffalo Bore ammo will not do the same, even if it is supposed to be standard pressure. If you want to shoot a .38-44 type of round, use a .357 or a larger .38 Special.

The .38 Long Colt and .38 Special (the old lead round nose load) were very similar and had a similar record of failure. The .357 magnum has had a very good record, at least since the 110 and 125 hollow point loads have become generally available. Prior to that, it was the increased penetration against car that sold the .357.
I do not know of any police or federal agency that dropped the .357 magnum for being ineffective. The I&NS, which I worked for in the 1990's had NO COMPLAINTS about the performance of the .357 in the field. So when they went to a semi-auto pistol, it was one with roughly the same performance as proven by its use in the field.

You can compare the two .38's and the .38 S&W. All had similar power, penetration, lack of expansion and overall poor performance. Sure, their were those one shot stops, but it is the failures that you have count. The U.S. Army did not adopt the .45ACP because it was harder to shoot than the .38 Special, it was adopted because the .38 Long Colt had convinced them that it did not work. The 9m.m. full metal jacket round also has a poor reputation prior to the introduction of hollow point ammo. Then it had a mixed reputation till the availability of higher performance ammo.

The 9m.m. was bad mouthed by the FBI, despite it having fairly good performance with the early high performance ammo like the WINCHESTER Silvertip and FEDERAL +P+ rounds. So everybody went to the harder to shoot .40 caliber. Now, with much better ammo, the FBI and other federal agencies are going back to the 9m.m. due to training and qualification issues with the .40 caliber. It is an effective and proven round, but it kicks harder and is less pleasant to shoot.

Jim
 
There is data for reloading 38 Special to 38 Special pressures (not +P ) pressure that will throw a 158 gr bullet to nearly 1000 fps from a service size revolver.

Source for data, please. Thank you.
 
Well I am still trying to figure out why the number of rounds fired on average in a police shooting have more than doubled since switching from 6 shot .38 Special loaded with 158 grain RNL and todays blam-o-matics with high performance hollow points.

Used to be that data was easy to get from the Uniform Crime Reports from the DoJ.

through the 70's and eights "civilians" (here is part of what the issues of the day are, police are supposed to be civilians as well as they ARE NOT in the armed forces) used fewer rounds in defense than trained sworn officers on average....go figure.

However, yes, RNL is my last choice for a defensive load in a .38 Special.

When I was a kid in the 1960's a friend's cop dad would hammer a Phillips head screw driver into the tip of his issue RNL bullets that were in his revolver. Eventually someone higher up noticed and made him stop.

I would not be shocked if "Gun World" magazine's Lewis did testing with such rounds. I used to buy his magazine just for such goofy articles ( he did silver bullets once and tried different wooden pistol bullets) and his Lewisly Speaking page at the back...oh and early on the color center section..

-kBob
 
The 9m.m. was bad mouthed by the FBI, despite it having fairly good performance with the early high performance ammo like the WINCHESTER Silvertip and FEDERAL +P+ rounds. So everybody went to the harder to shoot .40 caliber. Now, with much better ammo, the FBI and other federal agencies are going back to the 9m.m. due to training and qualification issues with the .40 caliber. It is an effective and proven round, but it kicks harder and is less pleasant to shoot.

The FBI was using Silvertips during the Miami shootout.
 
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Can't directly link to the 38 Special page given Hodgdon's web interface. Use the above link and then select 38 Special and then check the 158 gr box. Click the get data box and then look at the two 158 gr LSWC bullet data sets.

That's fast, but they are from a 7.7" barrel, and if they are using a SAAMI spec 7.7" barrel, it's an unvented one-piece barrel, so the speeds are higher than normal.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

I think if folks are going to compare speeds of various stuff, it would be good to compare them from a 4" vented barrel, which is what most factory data is from. Then it's more of a apples to apples comparison.
 
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