Interesting thing happened at Walmart

[Zundfolge]

Zundfolge,

I did some research on the statement you made that in Kansas only a law enforcement officer has the right to use force to make an arrest, and found the following:

Kansas Statute No. 21-3216

21-3216. Private person's use of force in making arrest. (1) A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if he were summoned or directed by a law enforcement officer to make such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another.

(2) A private person who is summoned or directed by a law enforcement officer to assist in making an arrest which is unlawful, is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the arrest were lawful.



So, unless I'm reading this wrong (the PA Crimes Code says almost exactly the same thing as the above) a private person has the power to arrest or assist in an arrest as long as a law enforcement officer would be justified in arresting the same person for the same crime.

Sorry to call your bluff there Zundfolge. (I truly am sorry, I wasn't looking to do that on purpose. Was just curious where in your state's statutes it said what you were saying.)

Well I stand corrected

I got my information from a couple of guys I knew who worked as security at a mall in Wichita (seems the mall ninjas may not know the law). This was over 10 years ago so its possible the law has changed since then.

 

[flatdog]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. But if it has been please excuse it.

It seems to be taken for granted that the GG and BG have been properly identified. And that there is only one of each. The other GG co- worker has left the scene.

BGs often work in teams. You could be blindsided and overpowered by his as yet unseen accomplice(s).

How does the GG(security) know that you are also a GG? What will his reaction be to your "help/interference". What if the GG who left returns to the scene and sees a fight in progress where there was none before? What will his actions be?

The Security guard is performing at a sub-par level. Do you trust that he will make complicated decisions quickly and correctly? Add this to all the other "what ifs".

While leaving the GG to his own devices is distasteful. It's preferable to leaving the store in cuffs because you acted on faulty information.

flatdog.

 

[mack69]

Re:

I was in one of those super discount stores with a good buddy of mine a few years back picking up some stuff for the car etc. We were standing at the registers waiting to check out and some guy rips through the line next to us and runs for the door with some old lady's purse. The guy is about 10 feet from the door the lady screaming etc and my buddy picks up a pineapple that was on the conveyor in front of us. Launches the pineapple at the guy like a football, beans him right between the shoulder blades with enough momentum to put him through the plate glass door. Down and out. It all happened so fast no one but me saw him do it. We walked out meeting the LEO's on the way. mack......

 

[38SnubFan]

Re: Flatdog, Mack69

Flatdog,

Your concern about accomplices and the fact that the security agent could mistake you for a BG is a good point, and yes, was brought up in this thread before (I think).

This is where Jeff White and I both agreed that intervening is an individual decision, with no direct right or wrong answer. Granted, being overpowered by accomplices is a definite risk. However, being this is Wal-Mart, with shoppers entering the store in a constant flow, there should be enough witnesses to clarify you as a GG should you intervene.

I must also ask you to clarify what you mean by stating that the security agent is performing at "sub-par level," because so far I've been offended. I work in Public Safety myself and can guarantee you that I'm never operating "sub-par" when SHTF. I know there are plenty of "less than satisfactory" security guards out there (and I've come across my fair share of them) but you seem to have assumed the collective of them unable to "make complicated decisions quickly and correctly." Many of the security professionals I associate with, including those I work with, come from a law enforcement, corrections, or similar field, who are intelligent people who keep their minds "sharp as a tack" and can make those descisions so quickly that even I do a double-take. All I'm asking is that you please do not pre-judge us by the stereotypes provided by entertainment media and society. Thank you.

While leaving the GG to his own devices is distasteful, It's preferable to leaving the store in cuffs because you acted on faulty information.

I agree with that statement, but the original thread did assume that the information and evidence were clear. Your point is made though, and I'll agree with you that one should be clear of what is happening before making the judgement call to intervene. Again, this is where the "personal decision"-making comes in, as one person will believe he has enough information to go on while another person does not.

-------------------------------------------------------

Mack69,

Great story! I'd like to see that perp explain his injuries to his cellmates for that one! I must ask this though: What was the reaction of the owner-to-be of the pineapple after seeing her produce damaged by impacting against a human being? Your story though is one where it was clear a crime had occured and your friend was without a doubt (in my opinion) justified in the measures he took to stop the BG. Again, Bravo! Hope someone wrote a nice newspaper article about him, because it would only help to show that there are people in this world who step in and do the right thing!

--------------------------------------------------------

Sincerely,
38SnubFan

 

[PBIR]

My $.02 :

Thanks to the castration of the American society, it is no longer fiscally feasible to interject one's self into the midst of a petty shop-lifting incident. Oh the exposure to assault and battery charges... in this day and age a boy scout better have an attorney on retainer before even thinking about helping an old lady cross the street.


After working for the Waltons indirectly one college summer I'd hazard the guess that their corporate gratitude at your heroic good deed would culminate with a free two liter of Sam's Choice cola and a smiley face sticker.

 

[flatdog]

38 SnubFAn,

Sorry for the slow reply. Lots of stuff on my plate. I didn't mean to be vague in my post so I'll try to clarify it.

*********************
Quote:

"Granted, being overpowered by accomplices is a definite risk. However, being this is Wal-Mart, with shoppers entering the store in a constant flow, there should be enough witnesses to clarify you as a GG should you intervene."

**********************

Eye/ear witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. No two ever see or hear the same thing. Not necessarily out of malice, but more likely due to the fact that most people are not trained to be observant or accurately report those observations. They tend to fill in details to be helpful,or to make a more coherent story.

My comments about the "sub-par" performance of the security agent apply only to the one in the original post. I made no assumption that all security agents are incompetent.

Your professionalism is not in question. No guarantee on your part is needed.

The quotes below illustrate what I refer to as "sub-par" operation.


****************
Quote:

"The large security guy is still holding on to the arm of the guy and the cashier has walked off. The security guy is talking on a radio. The suspected BG is eyeing the door and the security guy is not paying a lot of attention but still has him by the arm.

I told my wife "He's fixing to run." THe guy was all but holding a sign announcing his intentions. As I said this the BG raises his arm real casually and the security guy lets go and the BG bolts for the door like a shot."
*****************
The agent in question has gone from gaining control of the situation and physical control of the shoplifter. To losing both. Possibly as a result of splitting his concentration.This didn't happen in a split second. It developed over a relatively short time period. None the less it was long enough for the "bystander to accurately size up the situation, tell his wife and consider his own actions.

Again I cast no aspersions upon you or other security professionals. My comments were based solely on the information provided in the original post. Not from media or societal bias.

flatdog.

 

[38SnubFan]

Flatdog,

Your explanation regarding "sub-par" security agent is appreciated. I do believe he would be at sub-par level as well, considering he was not keeping proper attention to the person he had in custody. When it comes to concentration in an incident, you have to prioritize. First priority is the person you have in custody (for the sake of a successful prosecution, but more importantly for your own safety).

Eye/ear witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. No two ever see or hear the same thing. Not necessarily out of malice, but more likely due to the fact that most people are not trained to be observant or accurately report those observations. They tend to fill in details to be helpful,or to make a more coherent story.

I don't disagree with you that, but I'm just going to briefly comment on that from a professional standpoint. No two witness' stories will be the same, and if you ask one witness about the incident on two separate occasions, it often differs there. However, there should be similarities where the stories pretty much say the same thing in general, and it's that common thread that a good LEO makes his case based on.

PBIR, I had to laugh like at your $.02. However, as screwed up as our government and legal system is, not to mention some of the members of our society, there are still some of us who will do the right thing, regardless of the reward. Even if offered the 2-liter of cola and the smiley sticker, I'd probably have to pass, advising that (and I quote another THR member on this), "there's a bigger reward I'm working on (pointing upwards)."

-MW

 

[Messiah Jones]

Let me tell you MY Wal-Mart story...

I bought a Dremel tool. Got home, it was used and broken. Went back to return it and I was accused by the manager that I was returning used property in a new box and told to leave. I pleaded respectfully that it was like that when I bought it. Someone else had done exactly what he accused me of doing. I was 24 years old and the owner of my own business, not exactly a juvenile and not an irresponsible kid either.

I talked and pleaded to the guy to please understand that I was the victim and that I was losing $70.00. I tried to exchange it for another Dremel but no, he said "You just want to get over on me and get two Dremels"!

It went on and on. He called me "shifty-eyed", among other cursed names and used foul language. Ho told me to go to K-Mart and that they might be dumb enough to take it back.

I was as polite as could be while he called me names, called my mom and threatened to call the police (again, I was 24). I told him to go ahead and call them because I was the one being robbed.

I finally told him... "I understand your position here, but a thief wouldn't spend an hour here trying to convince you of the truth". But he had called the police silently, they arrested me and I got a shoplifting charge. I was sent to court and convicted of shoplifting, fined a $300.00 charge to Wal-Mart and around $100.00 to the city. All for something I didn't do.

Here are the facts...
-Convicted of shoplifting, but was returning an item.
-Blamed with no proof, arrested and convicted.
-I refrained from using any foul language, unlike the Wal-Mart manager.
-I paid $400.00 for a broken and used Dremel tool.
-I spent 8 hours in a class for money management (mandatory)

THIS HAPPENED AT THE ST. PETERS, MO. WAL-MART ON JUNGERMAN RD.

Now, when you ask if you should have stopped the thief... maybe so. But the Wal-Mart people can find enough guys like me to pay for those thieves.

 

[PBIR]

I have always held the opinion that Wal-mart is the culmination of all things evil in the world of merchants.

 

[38SnubFan]

Messiah,

After reading your post, I must say I'm somewhat mystified and confused, but moreso, skeptical. Please understand I'm defining my skepticism from a professional standpoint (I work in Public Safety/Loss Prevention).

I talked and pleaded to the guy to please understand that I was the victim and that I was losing $70.00. I tried to exchange it for another Dremel but no, he said "You just want to get over on me and get two Dremels"!

First off, if you were attempting to make an exchange, why would you end up with two Dremels? It would seem to me that either the manager himself would inspect the tool to verify it did not work properly, or have an associate from Hardware verify it. Either way, an exchange means you return the one and get a new one in its place, not another one free.

It went on and on. He called me "shifty-eyed", among other cursed names and used foul language.

Seems to be a little out of place to me, because it would seem to me that a person tends not to use profanity and harsh tone, much less in public display, unless provoked. You said you remained calm, so I'll take you at your word. There are many people you are just generally mean and profane to everyone, but in my experience, they don't remain an associate of a company for very long, let alone become a manager.

...called my mom...

Here's where a good part of my skepticism came about. He called your mother? I would like to know his reasoning for that! More importantly (and this is where I'm really confused) how did he obtain your mother's name, much less her telephone number?

...they arrested me and I got a shoplifting charge. I was sent to court and convicted of shoplifting, fined a $300.00 charge to Wal-Mart and around $100.00 to the city. All for something I didn't do.

First off, a law enforcement officer would need to have reasonable evidence of such a crime (eyewitness account or video recording) to make such an arrest. Secondly, the situation you described would not be considered shoplifting; it would have been considered Theft By Deception (read "return theft"). For a shoplifting charge, there would have to be eyewitness/video proof that saw you take the item and remove it from Wal-Mart's property without paying for it. Thirdly, the fact that you were sent to court and convicted tells me that in addition to the complainant (Wal-Mart manager) and the law enforcement officer, a judge himself found enough evidence from the case and testimony to find you guilty of said charge. Now pardon me, but I think a judge is going to consider the facts long and hard before giving a "guilty" verdict, for the fact that neither himself or the State would want to end up getting sued for wrongfully convicting a person for such a small offense.

My girlfriend is an employee of Wal-Mart and advised me that all criminal apprehensions are handled by the Loss Prevention/Security department there. I contacted the St. Peters, MO Wal-Mart by phone and spoke to the manager on duty there to verify their store's policy on this issue. After explaining your post to him, he also verified that their store's policy is the same and that the criminal apprehension policy is corporate-wide. He stated this, as well as I have in this post: 1) That the act you described is not shoplifting, but return theft. 2) Apprehensions are made my Loss Prevention (not the store manager) before police are contacted. The only exception would be in the case that the suspect is violent/dangerous and therefore not safe to be handled by the Loss Prevention/Security associates.

So at this point, I have to believe that your post is not truthful, based on the merits of its own context, which tends to contradict itself. It seems more to be like something you concocted in order to get attention.

If this truly did happen to you and you have some soft of verifiable proof that this did occur, I sincerely apologize; therefore also seeing you're a new member and this is your first post, welcome to The High Road, and we hope you can find some better luck here.

However, if your story is bogus, then do all of us a favor, and either don't place any more posts, or better yet, unsubscribe from THR. We're here to share TRUE stories, give advice, and provide support for legitimate, law-abiding people.

Also, by naming the exact Wal-Mart location, you can end up placing yourself in court for a Defamation Of Character lawsuit against you by Wal-Mart if this story is a lie, or even if the facts are not presented as they actually happened.

God Bless.

Sincerely,
38SnubFan

 

[Messiah Jones]

38SnubFan,
I can appreciate your skepticism. I know how it sounds, but it is completely true. I left a lot out to save on typing but everything can be explained.

I talked and pleaded to the guy to please understand that I was the victim and that I was losing $70.00. I tried to exchange it for another Dremel but no, he said "You just want to get over on me and get two Dremels"!

I was trying to "exchange" a Dremel tool which I had just purchased about 30 minutes before at the same location. I got home and it was old, used and broken. I came back to "exchange" it and was accused of buying the Dremel and putting and old broken in the box and trying to exchange it for a new one. This would leave the new one which was supposed to be in the box still in my posession. That's how he came around to accusing me of "trying to get two Dremels" . I asked why in the world would I go throught the trouble to get two of something? He said, I don't know, I'd like to have two of em" .

It went on and on. He called me "shifty-eyed", among other cursed names and used foul language.

I agree that this was out of place. So was the staring contest that he challenged me to. "Look me in the eye" he says. Well after 30 seconds of that you start to feel akward and I looked away. That's when he called me "shifty-eyed". This entire thing lasted over an hour, he didn't start with the foul language, but he sure ended up with it.
I never lose my cool. I used to be quite shy and never confronted people. My behavior was perfectly acceptable, probably too nice.

...called my mom...

Yes! I was 24 years old and he called my mom to see If I already had a Dremel at home or not. He had a whole scenario playing out in his head. I was asked what I did for a living, my age, asked to show proof. I answered everything no matter how rediculous because $70.00 was a lot to me and I was getting robbed. I gave him the phone number, he called, she didn't answer, and he also called the police while he was back there.

...they arrested me and I got a shoplifting charge. I was sent to court and convicted of shoplifting, fined a $300.00 charge to Wal-Mart and around $100.00 to the city. All for something I didn't do.

Part of that is wrong. The police grabbed me in the parking lot. He told them his scenario. When I was in the back of the squad car he laughed and pointed at me and said through the glass... "I told you nobody gets one over on me, not at my store". On the court day I was too young and stupid to defend myself. I plead guilty because I thought it would cost less and I didn't understand the charge. Here is the part that I said wrong... I had to pay the City $300.00 in fines, Wal-Mart $100.00 in fines, and take a mandatory 8 hour class on money management which cost me $80.00. Then I was on probation for six months. The charge wasn't "shoplifting" but something else similar. I can't find the ticket right now but it is on there in a little checked box.

Here's another kicker. I worked at another Wal-Mart location. So I was fired. Lost $480.00 to fines and $70.00 to a broken Dremel. The charge wasn't handled by Wal-Mart, it was handled outside in a squad car by one cop and the manager. This was about six years ago. The policies are probably still the same, but that is exactly what happened. I still have the ticket and the reciepts for all the fines. I've tried to get a job several times working for the City and I can't because of this.

Maybe the fact that I was outside in the parking lot and in my car when the police arrived makes a difference in their policy. I honestly don't know.

38SnubFan, I can appreciate your skepticism. There are many immature people floating around on internet boards. But I belong to several and have a good reputation with them under the same name. I can assure you, I won't bring that level of immaturity here, and I don't need any more attention than I have. I admit I should have looked into it better to know exactly what the charge was before making such an accusation. I will do that.

I posted my story because I noticed this post, and was just in Wal-Mart yesterday watching a manager chew out a teen while trying to return a Disney movie. He said the same thing he told me... "Try K-Mart, maybe they're dumb enough to take it back". He blatently told the kid... "Looks like you stole it, how 'bout I call the cops". This was in front of a large line of customers. Wether it was the same manager I don't know. I don't remember the guy's face after six years.

My beef isn't with Wal-Mart but rather with that manager and what he gets away with. I know my case is rare. I still shop there even though technically I'm never allowed in another Wal-Mart ever. According to what I was told by the police I can get a trespassing charge.

 

[38SnubFan]

Messiah,

Again I apologize, and really do feel sorry for the situation that happened to you. My advice is to never shop at that Wal-Mart again, as I never would myself. Is the area you live in a high crime area? Sounds like it might be and that the employees of that store are taught to be "hard" on everyone with "high-ticket" item returns. ($70.00 is not high-ticket to me, but to a cheap company like Wal-Mart, it probably is for them.)

I know what I would do though if I was in that situation: Leave the store! I'd probably travel to a different Wal-Mart, one where the staff is a lot friendlier and not looking to make everyone a criminal. My girlfriend works in the Mechanicsburg, PA Wal-Mart as a Jewelery salesperson and I can tell you the staff there, no matter how much of a bad day they have, will not do that to you. Actually, I've never been treated that way at the Harrisburg, PA Wal-Mart (which is a high-crime area). I surely wouldn't have given the horse's-behind of a manager you dealt with an hour of my time, but I understand you were young (actually, I'm only 27 myself) and really didn't know how to handle the situation.

Even though you plead guilty out of fear, it might be possible to have that conviction exponged from your criminal record with the right attorney. You may still even be able to pursue civil litigation against the company for any losses you incurred from the fines, legal costs, loss of income from being fired, and punitive damages for the mark on your criminal record (probably doesn't help with a new job search). As far as being fired from Wal-Mart, I wouldn't necessarily consider that a bad thing. My girlfriend only makes $7.50/hour, and her schedule can be a real mess sometimes.

I think you're very forgiving to want to shop in Wal-Mart again, for I know I'd be giving K-Mart or Target or some other department store my money after something like that.

By the way, again, welcome to The High Road! Some of us are more of a gun nut then others......no.....wait.....we're all serious gun nuts! So if I may ask, what brought you here? Feel free to PM me at any time.

Sincerely,
Matt

 

[Messiah Jones]

38SnubFan,

Thanks for the kind words. I hope everyone here turns out to be as mature. I guess the reason I continued to shop there was because the next day I went to the same location and returned the item with no hassle whatsoever. I could have put a brick in the box and nobody would have known, they didn't even open it. I was treated very well by the Wal-Mart staff the very next day. The problem is that now someone else could have purchased the used and broken item just like I did. I wasn't about to tell them that I was in there the night before or that it was broken, I just glued the box shut and got my money back. I know it was wrong, but $70.00 at that point in my life was a lot of money and I was mad about losing it.
That guy couldn't understand that a thief would do what I did the second time, and that the first time I was being truthful. I was forced to lie to a nice lady and possibly screw over the next customer. It was a choice I made, but at the time emotions were taking over.
I noticed this board while searching for gun info. I am also a gun nut and visit many of the gun boards online. Thanks for the welcome, I see this will be a place to get great info and look forward to learning something new. I'll try to get off to a better start next time.

 

[38SnubFan]

Messiah,

We're always here to help.

-Matt

 

[Edmond]

It really sucks that something like that happened. But it doesn't surprise me because a lot of those managers have major attitude problems; I know because I used to work for Sams Club years ago. They act like their crap doesn't stink and they rule the world.

Could they do that today? I don't know because people would be on the phone to lawyers and corporate and the media so quick with a story like that.

 

[Jeff White]

Here's a similar situation:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...+shopper,+employees+aid+in+capture+of+suspect
Schnucks shopper, employees aid in capture of suspect
By Heather Ratcliffe
Of the Post-Dispatch
07/16/2004


Rash of thefts prompts
stakeout at Twin Oaks



Four times since Saturday a thief has grabbed a purse or wallet from a grocery cart and quietly slipped out of the Schnucks in Twin Oaks. The fifth time, a team of crime fighters was waiting.

A customer and a pair of employees joined in the sting operation Wednesday afternoon.

St. Louis County police had set up surveillance at the store, at Big Bend Boulevard and Highway 141. Just after 2:30 p.m., an undercover officer strolled through the aisles while two officers monitored surveillance cameras from the store's office. Another officer waited outside in a car, in case the thief ran.

Police say the team had been in place only a few minutes when a customer began yelling, "He has someone's purse!"

A man in a Rams jersey had tucked a black purse under his shirt. The alert customer called out the name on the back of the jersey.

"Stop, Bruce!"

The thief took off running.

Store clerk Scott Simpson first heard the call for help. Simpson ran after the man. They reached the front door just as employee Erikson Ottinger was coming in from his lunch break.

The employees chased the thief into the parking lot and tackled him, police said. County police officers running just behind handcuffed the man.

The employees "did a great job," Officer Jim Grotha said.

Grotha also commended the shopper. "She was really the one who saw him first and noticed that he was up to no good," Grotha said.

The purse in the thief's hand belonged to a woman who didn't notice that it was missing until after the commotion. She had been pushing two carts, one for her groceries and the other for her infant.

Bassam Abuhamdeh, 23, of west St. Louis County, was charged Thursday with five felony counts of stealing a credit device. He was being held in lieu of $25,000 bond.

Abuhamdeh, of the 200 block of Shady Oak Drive, is on probation after pleading guilty of distributing a controlled substance in July last year, court records show.

Store co-manager Tom Waytus, who was the third person out the door after the thief, said his workers often chase shoplifters.

"When you see someone running, your first reaction is to chase them," Waytus said. "You react without thinking."

Reporter Heather Ratcliffe
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 314-863-2821

 

[38SnubFan]

Great story Jeff!

Jeff, what newspaper did you find that in? I'm guessing it might be your local paper there.

I surely bet that the shoplifter wasn't expecting to be chased down by employees, let alone having the police on surveillance nearby!

One could only wish that other retailers' employees were that pro-active in loss prevention. It would definitely keep the retail crime down to a minimum.

BTW Jeff, any word on that uniform patch? I'll check my PM. Let me know.

-Matt Webb