"Invisible" Weapons - effective?

[JoergS]

Invisible here means: Not detectable by metal detection portals at airports.

That's right, I wanted to find out what non metal knifes and non metal slingshot ammo can do to a block of ballistic gelatin.

I started out with the gorgeous flint knife Ad'lan (from the Zombie forum) made for me (we traded a while ago), and then went on and tested a dogwood knife (my own handiwork), a Cold Steel "Grivory" knife (plastics) and a Kyocera ceramics knife. Then, I tested what pebbles do to the gelatin, in comparison to steel and lead.



All of the knifes proved to be dangerous, even the wooden one. The Cold Steel was the best stabber, the ceramics knife the best slasher. The pebbles penetrated the gelatin about two inches deep (the metal balls went straight through).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itd3eIaWSn4

My conclusion: Either allow everybody to take a knife aboard, or increase security. It is simply too easy for criminals and terrorists to smuggle weapons through security.

Now lots of people commented that there is metal in the ceramics and grivory knife. That is a myth. Cold Steel attached a (removable) key ring to the knife, that is all. The whole knife (w/o the key ring) weighs only about 30 gramms, just twice as much as my wedding ring. Not heavy enough to trigger the detectors even if HALF the knife would be metal.

And there is NO metal in the small Kyocera ceramics knife. I checked.

What do YOU think should be done? Increase security, or legalize on board weapons?

 

[hso]

This is one of the reasons why the new whole body scanners have been put in place, to see the whole body in contrast to anything not of the same detectable density.

The other factor to consider is that airline security protocols changed completely after 911 from protecting the safety of passengers to securing the cockpit regardless of the threat to the passengers.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Im not surprised that they were effective.

What do YOU think should be done? Increase security, or legalize on board weapons?

Legalize, because no security measure can offer protection against "terrorists" who often have help from intelligence agencies. And besides, a person can be devastatingly deadly unarmed - so, how are you going to scan for that? Should martial arts be banned, or should we all have government controlled remote activated bombs attached to our brainstems to make sure no one flips out? Furthermore, how many "terrorist plots" have been foiled because of airport security? ... Thats right.

You simply cannot build a safe society by increasing security measures, because then the security apparatus becomes a terrible threat to civil liberties. I'd rather take my chances with the "terrorists" than give the government all the power in the world to mess up my life.

A very wise man once said; "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither". I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Loosedhorse]

My conclusion: Either allow everybody to take a knife aboard, or increase security.

They are increasing security. Doesn't stop mistakes: a friend traveled with a very large pocket knife in his carry-on. Left it in the bag by mistake, wasn't noticed by security. He discovered it himself, while in the sterile area of the airport, and decided to take it onboard.

He somehow managed not to hijack the plane.

Before his return trrip, he mailed the knife home.

What do YOU think should be done? Increase security, or legalize on board weapons?

IMHO they should have legalized firearms on Sept 12. Okay, give them a little time to harden the cockpit.

As it is, the passengers are the chief security system if something happens on board--and the most likely victims of any attack.

 

[Carl Levitian]

They need to knock back airline security to pre-911 standards. The passengers nowadays are a way better security force than any TSA goon squad. Before, getting hijacked meant being taken someplace, sitting on a runway for an uncomfortable amount of time, then eventually being released.

Now, with 911, being hijacked is a death sentence and the passengers are in a fight for their life. The kid gloves are off, and in a weird way, Osama Bin Laden did us a good deed. He shot the hole terrorist movement in foot with 9-11, because it will never be possible to do it again. Too much passenger involvement now. When the shoe bomber went to light off his shoe bomb, it was the passengers who grabbed him and beat him into submission. When the underwear bomber went to detonate his explosive BVD's, it was the passengers who grabbed him. Todd Beamers spirit is going to live on in passenger involvement from now on because the outcome is so disastrous if they fail to act together. Tod and his fellow passengers had nothing to fight with. If they restore the rights of passengers to carry what they will, hijacking may become a thing of the past. Heck, you can make a great case for giving each passenger a 2 foot piece of pick-ax handle when boarding. Passengers cam be the best security force now that the terrorists have shown they are going to kill everyone on the aircraft.

As it stands now, security cost big money. Most of that is a waste. Heck, the airline are crying like babies that they are hard up, so drop all the security and just deputize the passengers as they come on board. Hand each one a club and a security badge and tell them they are responsible for their flight, raise your right hand and say "I do!". I'd feel sorry for the poor dummy that pulls out a pack of matches. At the end of flight, the passengers drop their issued piece of pick-ax handle back in the bin by the door as they leave. No fuss, no muss, and very little cost to the airline.

Some people need to think outside the box.

Carl.

 

[bikerdoc]

Carl got it right again.

Yu'all know I dont fly since the last time I got into it with TSA.

Seems the burger flipping dropouts that work for TSA dont understand I am the kind of passenger you want on a plane if someone acts up.
Mentally picture a Cranky, old vet, former LEO with low tolerance for stupid, accompanied by post menopausal, ill tempered *****. looking for a fight.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Onward Allusion]

JoergS
<SNIP>
What do YOU think should be done? Increase security, or legalize on board weapons?

Require everyone flying who is legally able to do so, be armed, but of course it will never happen 'cause people would just go crazy and kill everybody in sight like they did in Kennesaw, GA.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The best way to hide a weapon is right out in the open. I carry a heavy walking cane.

 

[Geckgo]

+1 to Owen's comment, there is always a masterlock in my bag and it has never been confiscated.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

Archie Bunker had it right when he said they should pass out guns to everyone as they got onboard.

(in response to terrorist hijackings at the time)

 

[JShirley]

I have often traveled with a combination lock and a sturdy belt.

 

[Onward Allusion]

^^^
That's gotta hurt...

 

[Owen Sparks]

A heavy lock can also serve as a one finger version of brass knuckles. The main thing is to find a lock that fits your hand and actually practice hitting a heavy bag with it so that you get the feel of hitting something with it.

 

[Zoogster]

What do YOU think should be done? Increase security, or legalize on board weapons?

After the large cockpit doors were installed post 9/11 a study was conducted in order to see what post 9/11 rules could be relaxed and what security concerns still existed.
It was found that pocket knives and other sharp objects as banned after 9/11 no longer posed any threat to the aircraft or the pilots and passengers could be allowed to possess them again.
The primary threat was concluded to be explosives, knives and similar items no longer posed a risk to the aircraft and could be allowed and attention should be given to increased explosive detection.

Then the Flight Attendant Union protested. They felt passengers possessing sharp objects still put the flight attendants dealing with the passengers at risk and wanted the bans on pocket knives and similar items to remain.
Since they had already taken that freedom away from passengers they simply didn't give it back and most people were unaware of the whole reason why and continued to think it was just a post 9/11 security measure.




So the rules against sharp objects are not for safety of the aircraft anymore. Rather they are in response to the Union representing the Flight Attendants that don't want you to have the freedom to have sharp objects around their Flight Attendants.
Sharp objects pose no risk to the aircraft, pilots are behind solid heavy doors, and some of them are armed with firearms as well. Flight attendants are the ones that are keeping you disarmed in the passenger compartment.


A quick search on the issue to give a citation produced links such as this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/16/AR2005081601467.html

The nation's largest flight attendants union yesterday questioned a federal government proposal to end the ban on knives, ice picks and razor blades on board commercial airplanes.

The flight attendants, whose union represents 46,000 members, said that easing the ban on some prohibited items could pose a safety risk on board the aircraft and lead to incidents that terrorize passengers even if they do not involve a hijacking.

Once they take away a freedom they can be reluctant to give it back even when the reason for taking it away ceases to exist.
That they were going to do so was surprising to begin with.
Then the flight attendants said they don't want regular common people with sharp objects in their airplanes.
It was easier to just keep them banned than take on the flight attendant union to restore a freedom.


So Knives and sharp objects are banned because the flight attendants want them banned, not because they pose any security risk.

 

[Rail Driver]

Not to get too far off topic, but has anyone else noticed how rude flight attendants are these days?

Personally, I've never been too interested in the plastic knives, but the ceramics and wood knives sound interesting. I can see applications where a wood knife could be ideal... lightweight and it floats. Maybe make blade blanks like they do with stabilized/pressure treated/laminate handgun grips?

 

[T Bran]

Last flight I was on was Sanfransisco to Miami in April of this year. In the nice secure terminal sat a woman knitting with those long pointy aluminum sticks and a pair of scissors big enough to butcher hogs with ( about 12 inch stainless looking steel ).
Dont misunderstand me I got a free prostate exam from TSA but they either missed the knitting stuff or did not see it as a threat.
A friend of mine was at a mining site where they were using explosives and got covered in dust and debris about 2 hours before going through the sniffer thing and it did not detect a thing. When she brought this to the attention of the TSA people they were unconcerned which she found rather disconcerting. Im sure that every system has some glitches so we need to watch our own backs. Do not trust in others to see you safely to your destination because incompetince is rampant and CYA rules the decision making process instead of good sense.
T

 

[Owen Sparks]

Walking canes are protected as medical devices under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Not only can you not be discriminated against for carrying a cane, the authorities are not even allowed to inquire into the nature of your disability as it is concidered confidential medical information.

 

[glistam]

I'm typing this in a foreign country right now, having just flown internationally from the US. Had to take my shoes off (everyone did) and put them on the belt, take my laptop out, etc. I got the metal detector instead of the scanner. It's random. Stressful and a serious waste of time, though I admit the guards I dealt were cool folks at least. My aunt opted for a pat down instead and was joking the whole time about getting a massage.

Now in all I went through, nobody paid any mind to my 9 ounce solid brass Masterlock 175 or my solid steel embassy pen clipped to my notepad. Nobody even asked. You can never truly "disarm" people. And personally I feel I can dish out much more damage with those than a nail file or a swiss army knife.

That mention of the Flight Attendant Union was highly enlightening. Thanks for that. Any buffoon could tell you knives are no threat to the plain and pilots. The attendants are just being paranoid about angry/drunk passengers. Problem is, I flew in the pre-knife-ban days too and it certainly was not stab-central on flights back then. It's a stupid rule and I hope they come around eventually to a more reasonable approach.

 

[BRad704]

bikerdoc... I knew I liked you... HAHAHAHAHAAA...

 

[hso]

It doesn't matter what we think should be done, the days of carrying knives on commercial passenger aircraft are over. Trying to get around bringing purpose built weapons aboard with you is a criminal offense. THR doesn't allow discussions of ways to commit crimes. Also, I travel internationally, the TSA folks are cupcakes by comparison to their counterparts in places I've been. I have never lost anything to US TSA, while I've had the same mundane items taken from me overseas. Stick to what isn't obviously a weapon and you won't end up with a cavity search.

I will also reiterate, the new Advanced Imaging Technology whole body scanners will see these as contrasting items. It will trigger a search. You will not enjoy the process. I have seen them detect credit cards and even plastic mag strip hotel room "keys" with my own eyes.

Regardless of the "F-Troop" banter, the TSA, and their foreign counterparts, will take a very dim view of anyone trying to get anything that is OBVIOUSLY a weapon aboard an aircraft. I promise that you will have a very very bad day that may not end for months if you try to get things like this past them and get caught.