Is 5.7 a threat to 9mm dominance?

[Zerodefect]

Maybe a question for another thread but if that's the case what's even the point of SMGs now? If we can just shrink down the AR/M16 platform to SMG scale does that mean that not only is the 5.7 an evolutionary dead end, but also every 9mm too, baring sidearms?

Swat teams and security guards might still have a use for an Mp5 or P90. I'd surely want some in my armory, even if it is rarely used.

And the 5.7 will still zip right through my concealed L2 soft armor. Level IIIa isnt so concealable.

 

[mljdeckard]

I have a .22 TCM, not because I particularly wanted one so much as RIA was making all of their 9mms ".22TCMs that convert to 9mm" for a while, and I wanted a cheap double-stack 1911 9mm. I like it ok, but I don't shoot it very much. And I like that round better than the 5.7. Like I'm sure other people have mentioned above, the big attraction of the 5.7 lies in its ability to penetrate light armor, but without the AP bullets being available to the general public, there's little point to it. The .22 TCM outperforms it from a 5" barrel, and I can always for. TCM brass from 5.56 brass if I ever really NEED to. But right now I have a stockpile of several hundred rounds I bought because it was still on the shelf when nothing else was, and I'm not even in a hurry to shoot it anyway.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I wouldn't say it's on life support either. The amount of handguns and ammo manufacturers DID double in the last year or so. And ammo is sold out even at a dollar a round.

I see what you did there! It went from one gun to two! Isn't pretty much all ammo sold out right now? Hunting ammo in my part of Montana is almost totally sold out despite being $3/round when it does turn up.

The 5.7 seems more trivia question than viable round. But it's cool that there are tons of options, and if you're patient (and have deep pockets) you can get just about anything.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I see what you did there! It went from one gun to two! Isn't pretty much all ammo sold out right now? Hunting ammo in my part of Montana is almost totally sold out despite being $3/round when it does turn up.

The 5.7 seems more trivia question than viable round. But it's cool that there are tons of options, and if you're patient (and have deep pockets) you can get just about anything.

I actually lied. I completely forgot about the abomination that kel tec made. Its a pistol technically. So it actually tripled....9mm, 45, 10mm... none of those tripled in popularity in the amount of guns made in those cartridges. Lol. Only the ever gaining 5.7. By 2121 it would pass up 44 special for self defense in popularity at this rate. Lol

I actually carry a 5.7 a lot. There is no better varmint/ coyote etc etc pistol to have on your hip in the tractor. It's light. Reliable, super accurate (only ammo ive fired is the FN stuff and some reloads) , good trigger, etc etc I can reliably hit those varmint at 100 yards with devastating vmax damage on such small targets and without 10mm or 44 mag noise and recoil. Not that it's quiet by any means. It's a loud pop.

Of all my guns, it would be pretty dang close to the last choice for SD.

 

[reddog81]

Maybe a question for another thread but if that's the case what's even the point of SMGs now? If we can just shrink down the AR/M16 platform to SMG scale does that mean that not only is the 5.7 an evolutionary dead end, but also every 9mm too, baring sidearms?

Your question seems to incorrectly imply that 9mm sidearms are a small market. 9mm SMGs could disappear tomorrow and the impact on the total sales of 9mm firearms wouldn't even be noticeable. 9mm carbines, and SMGs are popular because the round is so widely available, cheap and adequate in most scenarios. It's easy to come up with rounds that are more powerful and in theory "better", but in the real world 9mm is very practical. Nothing is going to replace it in the near future.

A better question IMO is which rounds will remain in that second tier of popular rounds and does 5.7 even belong there along with the likes of .45 ACP, .40 S&W, etc. I would vote no.

 

[westernrover]

Maybe a question for another thread but if that's the case what's even the point of SMGs now? If we can just shrink down the AR/M16 platform to SMG scale does that mean that not only is the 5.7 an evolutionary dead end, but also every 9mm too, baring sidearms?

SMG's are not popular in the US for anything for some time now. Throughout history, one of the great virtues that made them popular was the low cost of manufacture. Stamped metal receivers and open-bolt blowback designs got the MP40, the M3, and the PPSh-41, the Uzi, and even the MAC-10 elected for mass production when conflict was rife. Without an impending need and regulatory allowance for mass quantities of buzz guns, they don't have much application where there is a better (and more expensive) alternative that can easily be afforded in a wealthy economy.

I will say that I think there is a good application for PCC's with suppressors. The 300 Blackout has no advantage over 9x19mm or 45ACP when subsonic. The only thing that makes the 300 a better choice is the ability to easily go supersonic just by changing ammo and thereby extend the range out to 200 yards or more. That's sort of a niche requirement. For an application that's going to be dedicated to close range, the pistol cartridges have no disadvantage compared to 300, but they do have the advantage of allowing a more compact gun and magazine. This application where a suppressor is used is something that 5.7 can't address. It's also something the cheapo open-bolt blowback guns don't do well. MP5's are too big. Maybe an MP5K or a Sig MPX or Kriss Vector.

The P90, although an expensive and well-designed and well-made SMG, cannot compete with assault rifles for most combat duties, cannot be stamped out cheaply like history's most popular SMG's, and cannot function meaningfully with a suppressor. It has the most limited roll of all these and has not grown in popularity since it was introduced in 1990.

 

[The Exile]

Your question seems to incorrectly imply that 9mm sidearms are a small market. 9mm SMGs could disappear tomorrow and the impact on the total sales of 9mm firearms wouldn't even be noticeable. 9mm carbines, and SMGs are popular because the round is so widely available, cheap and adequate in most scenarios. It's easy to come up with rounds that are more powerful and in theory "better", but in the real world 9mm is very practical. Nothing is going to replace it in the near future.

A better question IMO is which rounds will remain in that second tier of popular rounds and does 5.7 even belong there along with the likes of .45 ACP, .40 S&W, etc. I would vote no.

No that's not what I meant, obviously 9mm handguns are a huge part of the market, but I guess possibly if I do have a misconception it's that whatever the military chooses to use will influence civilian buying decisions. Army decides 5.7 is best because rising prevalence of body armor, P90 and some form of 5.7 handgun are adopted, then normal people decide they gotta have one too because it's what the army uses so it must be good! Lots of guns IMO are as popular as they are in large part due to military service, the 1911 being a pretty notable example IMO. If the army wanting a snazzy .45 handgun that can knock the tar out of a Phillipino tribesman can influence the handgun market over a hundred years later than I could imagine the 5.7 being propelled to stardom through similar means.

 

[westernrover]

Yes, but the 5.7 was so introduced in 1990 and there was indeed the notion that it or H&K's 4.6x30mm would "replace" 9x19mm as the NATO standard. It did not happen. It's been 31 years. 5.7 was nothing but a curio, with even the Secret Service (the only US agency to adopt 5.7 and who have a track record of adopting whatever someone can be convinced is the latest wiz-bang thing) have dumped 5.7. I understand 5.7 was popular for a while with drug cartels in Mexico, ostensibly because of its reputed performance against soft armor -- something that is very ammo dependent because the armor-piercing 5.7 ammo is not generally available to consumers, and while regular 5.7 ammo does penetrate soft armor fairly well, even more so from a longer barrel (P90S), its performance compared to other options (5.56 out of AR pistol) is marginal. Basically, the cartel punks thought they had something when in fact they did not -- kind of like their bad taste in cars and trucks.

5.7 was saved from near total obscurity by Ruger's introduction of an affordable (compared to the FN FiveSeven) pistol. The ammo shortage, on the other hand, has put a serious damper on whatever enthusiasm for 5.7 might have built up.