Is ANY gun that is 50+ years old really a C&R?

[makarov1989]

I have heard that once a gun is 50 years or more old, it automatically becomes a C&R. Is that true?

For example, if I have a S&W model 36 revovler that was made in 1952, is that a C&R? What if I buy it before it becomes a C&R, do I have to log it once it becomes a C&R? If I buy a gun before it was a C&R and I want to sell it after it becomes a C&R, do I need to follow the C&R rules or the regular firearm rules?

These are questions that are not clear in my book. If you know the page that explains this type of transation, let me know.

 

[Kharn]

If its over 50 years old or on the list, its C&R:
Link to ATF's C&R list

This publication is a cumulative digest of determinations made by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and is not inclusive of all weapons meeting curio or relic classification (i.e., firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date).

ATF's website showing the actual law

"Curios or relics" is defined in 27 CFR § 178.11, as follows:

Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

For your other two questions, I believe you do not have to log it when it becomes C&R, and when selling a C&R (thats not listed in your bound book due to either being bought before you got your C&R or due to administrative declaration after you bought it) treat it like a private person selling to a C&R (ship directly to the C&R, etc).

Kharn

 

[PeteyPete]

I know this doesn't apply to me since i'm an NJ resident...but does this mean that original full-auto Thompsons or grease guns manufacturered during WW2 would be considered C&R's?

 

[Kharn]

PeteyPete:
You are correct. Also, you only have to pay a single $200 tax, even if its coming from an an out-of-state buyer (as its shipped directly to you, you dont need a dealer to act as a middle-man).

Kharn

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Yep.

There are 3 ways a gun becomes a C&R:

1. A curator of a municiple, state or federal museum says it is so the museum can get around gun laws the rest of us have to deal with.

2. It has reached it's 50th birthday. (Relic)

3. The firearm has been determined by ATF to have most of it's value due to it's collectibility (for whatever reason) and they add it to the list. (Curio)

If I buy a gun before it was a C&R and I want to sell it after it becomes a C&R, do I need to follow the C&R rules or the regular firearm rules?

If you want to ship it to another C&R holder, add it to your bound book and then send it. If you do a private party transfer, you can do it either way. Sell it to a legal purchaser or log it in your bound book and then transfer it to the purchaser and record the information in the book.

 

[makarov1989]

Thanks for all the great answers! That really did help. I have looked trough my books but sometimes it is hard to find just what I am looking for. You guys are great!

 

[greyhound]

If it helps, yesterday I bought a Mosin-Nagant made in 1943 (at a gun show) and had to do the 4473/NCIS check.

Not sure if thats relevant, but to me it seemed like any rifle purchase...

 

[Hkmp5sd]

greyhound,

You bought it with a C&R license and still had to do a 4473 or you bought it as a non-licensee?

 

[greyhound]

You bought it with a C&R license and still had to do a 4473 or you bought it as a non-licensee?

Non-licensee. Not too knowledgeable on C&R laws, I admit.

Always had the assumption that there were guns out there that you just handed over the cash and off you went - does this apply to black powder, guns over a certain age, none, or both?

So I guess a C&R dealer license just means you can avoid some of the hassles, due probably that as a collector you do a lot of transactions?

 

[Kharn]

Greyhound:
Muzzle loaders and any gun made before 1898 (picked because the Mauser action was designed/finalized in 1898) are exempt from almost all gun control laws.

Kharn

 

[greyhound]

Thanks, Kharn, I was confusing "made before 1898" with "C&R"!

 

[Hkmp5sd]

So I guess a C&R dealer license just means you can avoid some of the hassles, due probably that as a collector you do a lot of transactions?

You don't have to do any transactions, but with a C&R, you will.

The C&R license allows you to purchase any C&R classified firearm from anyone in the US, individual or dealer, and have it shipped to your front door. No state lines, waiting periods, background checks or paying some FFL to do the transfer for you.

Highly recommended for anyone that wants to increase their gun collection and go broke.

 

[greyhound]

Ahh, so now I see why some of the guns for sale in "Shotgun News" have little balloons with "C&R eligible" next to them!

 

[MuzzleBlast]

Okay, but

If you are a cruffler and you sell a gun to a non-licensed person in your own or another state, do you have to do the 4473 and background check on the person you are selling to?

 

[Kharn]

Muzzleblast:
You cant do a background check, and you shouldnt do a 4473 (even though the ATF gives a C&R a pack of them in the generic FFL info packet). Those are both for dealers, a C&R selling his collection is like a private party sale (but some states require the transaction occur through a dealer).

Kharn