Is Elk the only "justified" long range game??...338 Win Mag born as an Elk cartridge?

[saturno_v]

Few days ago I has an interesting conversation with a nice senior guy at the a gun shop I usually browse once in a while.
It seems that he has a lot of experience in hunting in all continents (Africa included)
He told me that Elk is pretty much the only game in the world where, in some regions (and some particular conditions) in the North American continent, is almost impossible, even with the best stalking techniques, to get very close....Elk is very hard to approach and it has a way to reach the most inaccessible spots....is such conditions sometimes a shot across a canyon is justified, actually often the only way to go.....up to 400 yards and even more.
Infact, he said, the 338 Win Mag was actually born as en Elk cartridge rather than Moose or Brown Bear, to deliver great punch at long distances.
Is that true?? Is Elk the only animal where long range can be really justified???

 

[X-Rap]

I would say the prime habitat of the Elk is probably the reason for many 400-500 yd shots. Take a range finder into the hills and see how often that distance shows up when looking across canyons and such. Many will promote a stalk but depending on terrain and the wind (always the wind) it may be very hard to approch especially from below.
Archery season is the time to hunt them close up, there are far fewer hunters to disturb them and they are in the rut with their guard down.
As for the 338WM I would not say it is my pick for any distance shooting compared to the 300 posibilities or the larger 338 cartriges available.
Mule deer fall into this distance qualification also and antelope can be pretty hard to sneak up on too.
All that said I shot my bull this year at 50yd with a 338-378. It happens.

 

[MutinousDoug]

It's pretty tough to get close to antelope once the season begins, the same with mountain sheep and goats.
I've shot seven elk over the years and none were further away than 60 yards so IMHO, your hunting cartridge depends more on where you hunt than the game you're after.

 

[natman]

Few days ago I has an interesting conversation with a nice senior guy at the a gun shop I usually browse once in a while.
It seems that he has a lot of experience in hunting in all continents (Africa included)
He told me that Elk is pretty much the only game in the world where, in some regions (and some particular conditions) in the North American continent, is almost impossible, even with the best stalking techniques, to get very close....Elk is very hard to approach and it has a way to reach the most inaccessible spots....is such conditions sometimes a shot across a canyon is justified, actually often the only way to go.....up to 400 yards and even more.
Infact, he said, the 338 Win Mag was actually born as en Elk cartridge rather than Moose or Brown Bear, to deliver great punch at long distances.
Is that true?? Is Elk the only animal where long range can be really justified???

An awful lot of Elk get shot every year at distances less than 400 yards. Usually a LOT less than 400 yards.

Instead of "hunting" elk on the other side of the valley, you might want to hunt the ones on your side.

 

[wankerjake]

He oughta come to the AZ desert and hunt some coues whitetail deer. Most of the folks who kill big ones consistently are set up for 600 yard shots. I would say from the accounts I hear 450 yards is about the most frequent distance people shoot them at.

An awful lot of Elk get shot every year at distances less than 400 yards. Usually a LOT less than 400 yards.

Instead of "hunting" elk on the other side of the valley, you might want to hunt the ones on your side.

Agreed

 

[ArmedBear]

The .338 magnums were developed because hunters had too many experiences with elk running off after being shot, not necessarily so they can be shot past ethical distances.

If you can find a copy of Hell, I Was There, read that.

I think of pronghorn as the top of the list of long-range North American game, where you might "stalk" to within 400 yards and take a shot, and elk as more accidental long-range quarry, e.g. the elk turns up on the other wall of a canyon, and you either take the shot or forget about the elk.

 

[X-Rap]

Keith thought anything under 338 was inadaquate and had claims of 400yd mulie kills with his 44mag.
He also viewed a handgun as a weapon of opportunity when it came to hunting and mostly relied on a large caliber rifle. This caliber preference led to quite a war of words between him and ? what the heck was that guys name with the 270?

 

[Art Eatman]

I guess nobody ever bowhunts for elk.

Sure a bunch of stories of tropy elk killed within one or two hundred yards. The gunzines are regular with them...

Granted, it's worthwhile to be able to make a longer-range kill, but it's certainly not an absolute thing.

Sorta gets back to actual hunting skill, I guess. I've killed a bunch of deer anywhere from 30 yards on out to a very few in Ma Bell territory--but I've also been able to sneak up to within ten feet of a buck that didn't know I'd been trailing him.

 

[ArmedBear]

You have to understand that Keith was a rancher and did a lot of fooling around with guns at long ranges, as well as a hunting guide who didn't want to drag his clients all over the place, chasing an elk that should have been DRT. He also did some incidental hunting.

He had one kill of a mulie at 600 with a .44, but he took a couple of shots to get the holdover, and it was a wounded deer that he was trying to stop from going over a ridge. He didn't just sit down and take a shot at a deer from 600. It had been wounded by his friend, with a rifle, first.

...and he'd actually practiced with a .44 at that range before, too.

 

[X-Rap]

Archery season is the time to hunt them close up, there are far fewer hunters to disturb them and they are in the rut with their guard down.

All that said I shot my bull this year at 50yd with a 338-378. It happens.

Granted, it's worthwhile to be able to make a longer-range kill, but it's certainly not an absolute thing.

Sounds like we are on the same page are we not? My view after spending a few years hunting in the mountains both rifle and archery is that when I take a look at the terrain I will be hunting I decide what weapon I will use some times its has iron sites sometime a 6.5 x 20 scope.

 

[ArmedBear]

Sure a bunch of stories of tropy elk killed within one or two hundred yards. The gunzines are regular with them...

Yes. But with the terrain around here, that's luck as much as anything. And elk aren't deer.

I was hunting deer locally (in elk country) a few weeks ago, in pretty heavy wind. I climbed the tallest peak to scout around, and found some deer bedded down in a canyon (I decided that I love ATV hunters: just look over the next ridge or two from where they are buzzing around getting skunked, and there are the deer). I tried to climb down, and couldn't get closer than 290 yards (lasered) without falling down the side of a very steep slope. The shot angle was bad, the wind was whipping so hard it was blowing me around, and I didn't know if I could retrieve the deer, so I opted to break off, take a Jeep around to the other end of the canyon, and try to hike in from the bottom.

I'd made careful note of some landmarks, and I found my way in. The deer had moved my way, and I jumped them sooner than I expected to see them. They stopped a few times, but I was all a-fever, and I still had my scope set at 9X for the 300 yard shot so I missed, and missed again with the big bolt gun I was carrying. Simple shooting screw-ups, when my spotting and stalking went all right...

I had a few more opportunities, but there had been two of them, and I only saw one. I didn't know if I'd hit the other one, so again, I opted not to take the shot and to look around for blood. Never found any. I'll have to get one there, next year.

Had they been elk, I wouldn't have had those other chances. It would have been the 300 yard shot, or no shot -- MAYBE one quick one at short range, but no more. Elk don't hang around like deer.

When you're in canyon country, you don't always get to decide if you'll spot the elk on your side of the ravine, or the other side. I'm guessing that there are not too many shot at 150, but more are shot at <100, or 400.

 

[Water-Man]

Not much a .338 Win. Mag. can do long range that a .300 Weatherby Mag. can't do.

 

[X-Rap]

You have to understand that Keith was a rancher and did a lot of fooling around with guns at long ranges, as well as a hunting guide who didn't want to drag his clients all over the place, chasing an elk that should have been DRT. He also did some incidental hunting.

He had one kill of a mulie at 600 with a .44, but he took a couple of shots to get the holdover, and it was a wounded deer that he was trying to stop from going over a ridge. He didn't just sit down and take a shot at a deer from 600. It had been wounded by his friend, with a rifle, first.

...and he'd actually practiced with a .44 at that range before, too.
_____________

And nobody fools with guns anymore? Nobody tries to push their own limits and that of their equipment?
He had seen enough of what at the time were poorly made bullets and knew that larger diameter was the best answer at hand.
All things being equal I think his thoughts are still valid regarding penetration and wound channel.

 

[ArmedBear]

And nobody fools with guns anymore? Nobody tries to push their own limits and that of their equipment?

Whoa! Calm down.

No, not all that many people have the opportunity to take a few guns along with them daily everywhere they go, and take shots at 600+ yards at various improvised targets, in a wide variety of terrain, as their "coffee break", wherever they happen to pull over on the side of the road. Elmer Keith did.

He had seen enough of what at the time were poorly made bullets and knew that larger diameter was the best answer at hand.
All things being equal I think his thoughts are still valid regarding penetration and wound channel.

Fully agreed.

It's not like he was advocating .50 BMG for dik-dik, either, just elk calibers that were heavier and bit bigger than, and just as fast as, a good .30-06.

 

[natman]

Keith thought anything under 338 was inadaquate and had claims of 400yd mulie kills with his 44mag.

He claimed he shot and killed a mule deer at long range that had been wounded by a client ONE TIME.

He also viewed a handgun as a weapon of opportunity when it came to hunting and mostly relied on a large caliber rifle. This caliber preference led to quite a war of words between him and ? what the heck was that guys name with the 270?

Jack O'Conner

 

[X-Rap]

Its cool AB I just think its likely that more are out there blasting rocks, sod poodles and jack rabbits than ever before especially with the vast improvements in reloading from Keiths day. Keith was pretty country and while well versed in what I would call common sense he was certainly not a math or physics guy and today the avereage shooter has more info available with a few keystrokes than Elmer could imagine.
Like I said his views are still as valid today as ever and he helped define what today is the large diameter school of thought.

 

[X-Rap]

natman I will have to break out my old books now and reread, I know he had a great many handgun kills but they may have been at shorted distance.
O' Conner yep thats the name of that drunken Irishman who shot the pea shooter.

 

[UpTheIrons]

Elk is very hard to approach and it has a way to reach the most inaccessible spots....is such conditions sometimes a shot across a canyon is justified, actually often the only way to go.....up to 400 yards and even more.

Three years ago, the group my dad hunts with came home with five bulls. The total yardage of all 5 shots combined was 130 yards. My dad's was 20 yards away, none was more than 50, and the .30-06 was the cartridge of choice.

I agree with some of the other posters - just take the time to look for the elk on your side of the canyon.

 

[saturno_v]

I wonder what kind of energy a 44 flat nose handgun bullet out of a 44 magnum revolver has left at 600 yards..or even 400 yards....are you sure it was the right distance??

Not much a .338 Win. Mag. can do long range that a .300 Weatherby Mag. can't do.

Actually quite a bit...

A 338 Win Mag can deliver a higher weight, higher SD bullet with more energy downrange....there are some 338 WM loads (SAAMI compliant) that can get close to 2500 ft/lb of energy left at 500 yards out of a 24" barrel..no "normal" 300 Magnum can match that....the 30-378 can get very close, energy wise, still with lighter bullets and lower SD out of a 28" pipe.

 

[X-Rap]

Actually quite a bit...

A 338 Win Mag can deliver a higher weight, higher SD bullet with more energy downrange....there are some 338 WM loads (SAAMi compliant) that can get close to 2500 ft/lb of energy left at 500 yards out of a 24" barrel..no "normal" 300 Magnum can match that....the 30-378 can get very close, energy wise, still with lighter bullets and lower SD out of a 28" pipe.

The difference to me is trajectory and the 338WM has that of a pumpkin compare to a 30-378 especially at the 500 yd range you give.
Energy is important but I would say without looking that a .30 180gr bullet shot from a 300Win or greater is carrying as much energy at 500 than a 243 is at 200 and there are plenty who say 243 is good for Elk.

Three years ago, the group my dad hunts with came home with five bulls. The total yardage of all 5 shots combined was 130 yards. My dad's was 20 yards away, none was more than 50, and the .30-06 was the cartridge of choice.

I agree with some of the other posters - just take the time to look for the elk on your side of the canyon.

I don't disagree with your premise since most of my elk have been taken at fairly close range. I only add that when you take to the field with a gun that is capable of a greater distance and you as a shooter can do it you expand the opportunity.
What did it for me personally was a bull shot at 300+ hit solid with a 308 that acted like it had never been hit. When I got down to where he was at he was drinking from a pond. The rest of the story takes to long for me to type but sufice it to say I got him and the 06 is now my minimum and my preference is 45-70 or 338-378.

 

[saturno_v]

The difference to me is trajectory and the 338WM has that of a pumpkin compare to a 30-378 especially at the 500 yd range you give.
Energy is important but I would say without looking that a .30 180gr bullet shot from a 300Win or greater is carrying as much energy at 500 than a 243 is at 200 and there are plenty who say 243 is good for Elk.

Definitely it doesn't shoot as flat with the 30-378 or the 300 Wby....close to a 300 Win Mag actually...definitely doable....hey folks shoot 45-70 Sharps at over 1000 yards!!!

For example, this Hornady load with 225 gr. SST (zeroed at 200 yards) has a 39" drop at 500...no bad at all....

Look this (I posted it already in another thread)

830 yards whitetail DRT with a custom 338 Win Mag rifle based on a Remington 700 action and a 28" match barrel...I do not justify this kind of bravado, however the point is the 338 WM can get out there with authority...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwIJOkFb4lg

The 338 Win Mag was actually purposely created as long range hunting round because of the intrinsic high ballistic coefficient of heavy .338 bullets

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've killed over 30 head of elk. I've only killed one maybe two at over 400 yards and I hunt them in as tough a country as they can be hunted in. I've guided hunters to at least that many kills and I can't ever remember letting a client shoot that far. I think your gun store buddy is bit full of it.

The .338 is possibly one of the best elk rounds on the planet, no doubt but the only thing it will do that .375H&H won't do is deliver a similar projectile from a shorter action and a possibly lighter weapon. To me the .338 is simply an American version of the .375H&H neither of which should be considered particularly great long range rifles. They have very similar trajectories with similar SD/BC bullets in fact within several inches of each other out to 500 yards.


But the caliber doesn't make the shot the guy pulling the trigger does. And most ya hoo's who buy a .338 and slap a 3X9 scope on it aren't anywhere near able to make consistent 400+ shots on any kind of game. Much less in field conditions from an improvised rest cross canyon with unknown and swirling mountain winds. I have personally seen that shot screwed up too many times.

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

I agree that the 375 and the 338 are very close, actually with he advantage going to the 375 in terms of muzzle energy.
However, long range, the 338 has definitely the edge (trajectory and retained energy)
There are several 338 loads in the 225-250 gr. range that can get sub-40 inches drop at 500 yards (and in the neighbourhood of 2500 ft/lb of retained energy) zeroed at 200 yards.

In some loads the 338 can shoot as flat as a 300 Win Mag.

I don't know of any 375 loads that can get less than 55" drop at 500 yards (and retained energies in the sub 1500 ft/lb range) zeroed at 200 yards as well.

That doesn't look like similar performances to me.

I would say that a 375 is close to a 30-06 in terms of trajectory (and energy left at 500 yards) rather than a 338 WM

From what I did read, the 338 is indeed a long range hunting cartridge...it was specifically designed to deliver a big whallop at long distances shooting reasonably flat.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Here's one for you..

375H&H
200 yard zero.

range drop ME
500 -40.7" 2679

A 270 gr Barnes X started @2820 from a 24" barrel.

Is that looking a little similar to you.

 

[saturno_v]

Here's one for you..

375H&H
200 yard zero.

range drop ME
500 -40.7" 2679

A 270 gr Barnes X started @2820 from a 24" barrel.

Is that looking a little similar to you.

H&H

These are the light bullets 375 H&H commarcial loads I can find ballistic data on

All zero 200 yards, spitzer bullets and 24" pipes

Hornady Superformance

270 gr. SP, MV 2820 fps drop at 500 49.8" energy 1793

Remington

270 gr. SP, MV 2700 fps, drop at 500 59,8" energy 1361

Federal

260 gr. Nosler Accubond, MV 2700 fps, drop at 500 48,9 energy 1934

The numbers of the load you mention are impressive, it is a handload??

However I have some perplexity about your figures because I computed the data with the JBM online calculator for a 270 gr. Barnes Triple Shock X bullet .375 cal with a BC of 0.326 at 2820 fps MV

This is what I got:

At 500 yards the energy left is 1510 ft/lb and the drop is 53,6"

So where you get that kind of numbers on that load?? Shooting at high altitude?? They are just a tad optimistic, including the 2820 fps MV....

In 338 you can get hunting bullets with a BC up to 0.565 (Sierra Gameking 250 gr.)...as far as I know you cannot get even close to that in a 375 cal.