Is Elk the only "justified" long range game??...338 Win Mag born as an Elk cartridge?

[natman]

I wonder what kind of energy a 44 flat nose handgun bullet out of a 44 magnum revolver has left at 600 yards..or even 400 yards....are you sure it was the right distance??

There are three factors that determine bullet effectiveness; velocity, bullet weight and bullet diameter.

Velocity comes and goes, but the nice thing about a big, heavy bullet is that even at long range and low speeds it's still big and heavy.

Energy, shmenergy a 240 grain 44 caliber bullet is a force to be reckoned with.

Again, please note that Keith did not attempt this as the first shot, he was shooting a wounded animal, so different ethical standards applied. He emptied his revolver at the animal and his skill and a good bit of luck saw him through on this particular occasion.

 

[H&Hhunter]

So where you get that kind of numbers on that load?? Shooting at high altitude?? They are just a tad optimistic, including the 2820 fps MV....

A regular Barnes X 270 gr bullet SD at about .278(Something pretty close to that without looking it up.) BC is .505. That is where the difference comes from the TSX has horrible BC. And yes that is a handload.

Chronoed out of my 20" barrel @ an average 2750 FPS so I don't think that it's optimistic at all out of a 24" barrel.

I ran my numbers with a 200 yard zero and an elevation of 6,000 feet which is 800 feet lower than where I live.

There is definitely a better selection hunting bullets for the .338 no doubt about it. But you can find a pretty good selection of bullets in the high .400 SD range for the H&H which is plenty good enough for my purposes.

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

Strangely enough when I go to the Barnes web site and I click on the X Bullets section the list is empty....the only X bullet I could find is the Triple Shock
Even if I go on the Midwayusa web site the only 270 gr. Barnes I can find are the already mentioned Triple Shock and the Banded Solid which has way worse BC.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...ing=9315***652***19785***9016***&brandId=1250

So far, the best BC for a .375 cal. hunting bullet I can find is the Sierra Gameking, 0.353 (2600 fps and above) for the 250 gr. and 0.475 for the 300 gr.

So that load numbers are for 6000 feet..that is what I was talking about, the best loads in 338 cal. can get in the 2300-2500 ft/lb range and sub-40" drop at 500 yards at sea level ICAO standard atmosphere...I cannot even imagine what they could do at that altitude...


I agree with you in principle that a good shooter can hit game the same with both at extreme ranges, however from a pure technical perspective the 2 cartridges are not similar at long range, the 338 has definitely a significant edge (flatness and energy) shooting out there....the 375, on average, has superior muzzle energy, an advantage it probably keeps up to 150-200 yards...

 

[ArmedBear]

Velocity comes and goes, but the nice thing about a big, heavy bullet is that even at long range and low speeds it's still big and heavy.

Good luck getting saturno_v to believe that it matters...

 

[saturno_v]

Ok I run some numbers..a 300 gr. 44 cal handgun bullet (BC 0.245) launched at 1300 fps, sea level ICAO atmoshpere..seems fair to me...

At 600 yards it will be well subsonic, 406 ft/lb left of energy and a drop of 446" (zeroed 100 yards)

Can you kill a deer with that?....yes you could....would I rely on it as coup de grace on a wounded animal?? Probably not....

However is impressive how little you lose energy and velocity once you get subsonic even with a short fat flat nosed handgun bullet....at 1000 yards that pill has still 269 ft/lb left of energy...more than a 38 Special at the muzzle!!!...The drop??? well....1817.5" inches yep 151 feet of drop.....50 yards!!!

 

[X-Rap]

Now have some fun and go out and find a hillside to prove it on. The real proof is in doing it, not that it has to be a deer or elk but rocks need killin too.

 

[caribou]

Caribou at 450 yards, in winter isnt unusuall at all.
Open tundra, miles of visibility, and a spook'd herd can make approach rather hard.
They are often spook'd and moving before you see them.
At that range I do body shots.

It isnt too hard at all, especially for my Mosin Nagant, but any 30-06 class of Cartrdge is certainly plenty good.

 

[Balog]

Every time I read these sumdood in a gun shop threads I'm amazed at both the quantity and quality of "information" and "knowledge" one finds there.

 

[Sunray]

"...Elk the only animal where long range can be really justified..." No. Antelope are shot at extreme ranges, but there's no justifying a very long range shot if you can't hit a 9" pie plate, every time, at the same distances on a range. A magnum won't make a lick of difference.
saturno_v, please reduce the size of your pictures.
"...computed the data with the JBM online calculator..." Ballistics calculators have little to do with reality.

 

[saturno_v]

"...computed the data with the JBM online calculator..." Ballistics calculators have little to do with reality.

We were talking about ballistic data...so that was the thread "reality"...

 

[saturno_v]

especially for my Mosin Nagant, but any 30-06 class of Cartrdge is certainly plenty good.

Double Tap has in its catalog an impressive 200 gr. 30-06 load (I cannot remember the bullet brand but it was some sort of ballistic tip) which advertises 1880 ft/lb left at 500 yards, fired from a 22" barrel (Remington 700)

Unfortunately the web site is temporary down, I will post the link and the yardage data when it will be back.

It is one of the baddest long rage 30-06 load I ever seen (if the numbers are real)

 

[saturno_v]

Ok Double Tap site is up again

Here you go, a couple of 30-06 SAAMI compliant loads out of a 22" barrel (Rem 700), sea level ICAO standard atmosphere.

180 gr. Nosler Accubond

MV 2800 fps, ME 3135 ft/lb

100yds - 1.7" high 2651fps / 2808ft/lbs
200yds - zeroed 2506fps / 2511ft/lbs
300yds - 7.3" low 2367fps / 2240ft/lbs
400yds - 20.7" low 2233fps / 1993ft/lbs
500yds - 41.2" low 2103fps / 1768ft/lbs

200 gr. Nosler Accubond

MV 2650 fps, ME 3120 ft/lb

100yds - 1.5" high 2525fps / 2831ft/lbs
200yds - zeroed 2403fps / 2565ft/lbs
300yds - 8.0" low 2285fps / 2320ft/lbs
400yds - 22.7" low 2171fps / 2094ft/lbs
500yds - 44.2" low 2060fps / 1884ft/lbs

At 500 yards the 200 gr. pill has the same energy of a 30-30 at the muzzle with a heavier, higher SD bullet.....

Rather impressive, I could not believe I could get that kind of long range performance out of my Remington 7600 pump rifle (22")

They are not even too pricey, $35 for a box (20)

 

[CoRoMo]

Elk is very hard to approach and it has a way to reach the most inaccessible spots

As true as this is, the terms 'very hard' are so relative that they have almost no meaning. It can be difficult, but is by no means impossible. All the elk I've killed were no more than 80-90 yards from me. A few were quite close. And when they decide to bug out, they can quickly go places too cumbersome to be followed.

 

[ArmedBear]

At 600 yards it will be well subsonic, 406 ft/lb left of energy

Yup, and yet, that bullet penetrated quite well and killed the deer when it had to.

But still, you think that the energy number is something magical. Why? Because Chuck Hawks says you need 1000 ft/lbs.? When his formula produces results that are obviously wrong, and even he says so?

 

[usmc1371]

I would say yes, elk are easy r to hit at long range than deer or antlope.. But they are quite a bit tougher at any range. I shudder to think of how many elk are hit at 400+ yards and never found. Tagged my 13th elk this year and it was every bit of 20 yards. And this was hunting in SE oregon where its pretty open and in some places dam steep. The longest shot I have made or even attempted on an elk is 340 yards, with a 300wm and 180g NP's, I would have been happy to get closer but that just wasn't going to happen but I had a good shooting position and made a good shot. The bull went about 20 yards and was down. Not dead but down. When we got close he came back to life and was knocked down for good by my little bro with his 338-378 at about 15 feet.

I have had the chance to fallow up quite a few elk that took hits form perfectly adaquate rounds just not in the right place, one of the perks of being in good shape and haing a good eye for blood. Seems to me the farther the hunter was form the elk when the trigger was pulled the farther the elk goes after the bullet hits regardless of the rifle used (30-06 and up). Don't even get me started on elk hit with tiny rounds ie 243.

I guess I would tell a new elk hunter it you see an elk and your first thought is "thats a pretty long shot" Don't take it. Do everything possible to get closer.