Is it possible for a rifle to be more accurate at distance than 100 yards?

[srawl]

I realize that may sound like a stupid question, but what I mean by it is is it possible for a rifle to shoot a not so good 1-2 inch group at 100 yards but maintain that at further distance rather than growing at the "moa" rate, i.e. 1" @ 100, 2" @ 200, 3" @ 300.

Could you shoot a group that is 1-2 at 100 but maintain that to 300 so a 2 moa group becomes something like a 3/4 moa group at 300.

I've searched online and find vague references to this being possible with bullets taking time to stabilize but others discredit this.

I ask because I'm finding a loading that my rifle likes I am discounting a lot at 100 and don't want to waste ammo even trying at 200 or 300 yards if this isn't possible.

Thanks

 

[Dr T]

Given identical initial conditions and given how the mathematics of time series goes, no. Basically, the expected deviation from the path based on random (read uncontrollable) phenomena will increase with time.

 

[MCMXI]

All theory aside, some people will shoot smaller moa groups at 200 or 300 yards than they do at 100 yards. My only explanation for this is that their scope magnification/reticle type/target size combination allow them to get a better and/or more stable sight picture at greater distance. I've used scope/target combinations that didn't work well for load development at 100 yards. Some will tell you that the bullet needs to "go to sleep" but that's been disproven by the likes of Litz and others, or at least it's been confirmed that the bullet is snoring within 100 yards. I still find moa an odd concept in terms of real-world shooting. No animal gets bigger the further away it is so why should the target?

 

[cdb1]

I've heard of it happening but never seen it happen.

 

[243winxb]

After the bullet has stabilized, it's less affected by external forces.

 

[wally]

Brian Litz at Applied Ballistics has an open challenge where he will reimburse all expenses of someone who can come out to his lab/range and demonstrate that this is actually possible. Google it.

 

[jmr40]

Depends on how you define accuracy. I've seen the following several times as have many others. I've had rifles that consistently shot 1" groups at 100 yards, no better and rarely worse. It would be reasonable to expect that rifle to shoot 2" groups at 200 yards and 3" groups at 300 yards. But at times I've had rifles and loads that would consistently shoot 1.5-1.75" groups at 200 yards. The actual group size was larger, but it changed from a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards into a .75 or .80 MOA rifle at longer ranges.

I don't know why. This is one of those things that is endlessly debated on the internet and there are several theories, none proven to my satisfaction. But I've seen it and too many others have observed the same thing to write it off.

A few things I've noted. It has never happened with most of the rifles I've owned, just a few of them. And the individual load seems to effect this. Some blame parallax error and some claim it is just more concentration on the part of the shooter at longer range. I'm not buying either of those theories since it has also been observed with iron sights and only with certain rifles and loads.

 

[Grumulkin]

Once a bullet starts on a deviant path it will NEVER somehow stabilize and turn back the way it was supposed to go. In other words, if it groups 1 MOA at 100 yards, it will not group any less than 1 MOA at 200 yards.

The reason for better than expected groups at longer ranges is:

A. Chance; if based on only a group or two.
B. If it consistently happens, then blame scope parallax.

 

[Bart B.]

It happens.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

Download then read the pdf file in:

https://archive.org/details/philtrans05900167

It's hard to see the effects of positive compensation through 300 yards with center fire ammo; easy with rimfire 22's. The USMC Rifle Team noticed some degree of positive compensation with their M14NM rifles in accuracy cradles at 600 yards compared to 300. The Brits liked this reality with their cordite powered 303's big velocity spread in long range fullbore events.

What's the distance limit of Brian Litz's range his challenge is to be shot at?

 

[DPris]

I had a discussion with a builder at the old Ballard rifle shop in Cody about accuracy.
He said what a gun did at 100 yards wasn't very indicative.
Give the bullet time to go to sleep, he said, and it can actually shoot tighter farther out.

I've only done that on one occasion, with one rifle that did shoot tighter at 200 than it did at 100 yards.
Fluke, accident, dunno.
It just did.
Denis

 

[Bart B.]

After the bullet has stabilized, it's less affected by external forces.

How is that possible?

There are two external forces; gravity and wind.

 

[bikemutt]

There's a delightful couple who shoots at the 200 yard range I frequent. It's all that range has available. And, it's all that's available to them for practice. In any event, they shoot 6mm Norma Benchrest which, I'm told, doesn't stabilize inside of 300 yards. It seems to me they do very well at 200 yards, I can't imagine how much better they look past 300 yards.

 

[zb338]

I'm with 2431XB. They say that some guns will shoot better once the bullet settles down.

Z

 

[Snyper]

What's the distance limit of Brian Litz's range his challenge is to be shot at?

There's no limit.

It's whatever you want it to be to prove a given rifle will consistently fire smaller groups at a farther distance than it will at 100 yards.

No one has taken him up on the challenge even though many were claiming they could prove it up until he made the offer.

 

[Snyper]

had a discussion with a builder at the old Ballard rifle shop in Cody about accuracy.
He said what a gun did at 100 yards wasn't very indicative.
Give the bullet time to go to sleep, he said, and it can actually shoot tighter farther out.

Yes, lots of people say that.
None seem to be able to demonstrate that it's factual.

 

[Hanzo581]

I am not a physicist, but something isn't adding up here. You're telling me an object that is off course at one hundred yards, will somehow right itself at 200 yards?

 

[Howard Roark]

They say that some guns will shoot better once the bullet settles down.

Bryan Litz covers this nicely in this article: http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC104_EpiciclicSwerve.pdf

The nose of the bullet will usually trace out a complete circle in less than 10 yards for a dynamically stable bullet (one that will settle to zero coning motion after a disturbance, or ‘go tosleep’). Even dynamically unstable bullets like the Sierra 30 cal 168 gr MK complete cycles in less than 50 yards.

 

[243winxb]

OOPs. my mistake. Deleted.

 

[mjsdwash]

I can say with a 24' rifle with peep sites I had that because of the site radius, and nature of peep sites, and my focus that I could shoot about 2" at 40 yards, and about 2" at 100 yards on a good day. The bullet was not anymore accurate at distance, that was just the limit of my ability, seemingly at all range. Most likely do to shakyness. The further or smaller a target, the more discipline you will show before shooting, so if your like me, your group will not get change within reasonable distance. Its not so much that your far shots are better, as you close shot are poorer. My experience anyway.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am a Converging Bullet Denier. The usual Internet Description of a bullet getting more "stable" and closer to the line of sight as it goes along would require that it start out orbiting around an axis outside the bullet. There is not a restoring force to do that. As Litz says "The nose of the bullet will usually trace out a complete circle..." Not the whole bullet which is what makes the hole in the target. Long ago the NRA reported that the "air spiral" was .10" or less.

The Bryan Litz Challenge is at 100 - 300 yards. I guess all these folks who aren't taking him up on it have such wildly gyrating bullets that they don't start to get more accurate until past 300 yards.

It has been done before. There was a guy on one of the benchrest boards who had an Oehler Accoustic target at 100 and a paper target at 335. He said he had NO case of a group of smaller angle at the long target. Maybe he didn't try the right bullet, but a lot of the poo-poohing amounted to calling him a liar.

 

[Hookeye]

It might happen, but not for the reasons people may think.
My guess is much of it due to sighting or shot execution errors.
Parallax might be problematic at 100 (but OK at 200).
One could flub a series of shots and cause a tighter grouping at distance. Just luck.
Bullets may wobble in flight and some might even exhibit lift to minor degree)...........but if it's big at 100, it should be bigger at 200.
Machine rest rigs would prove it (remove human error in sighting and execution).
Of course, the device must be correct and of zero movement.
Have seen folks use Ransom rests for handgun testing and not watch for variables (windage base not anchored well to a sturdy bench etc).
Not saying it doesn't happen...............but if it does it aint because of the bullets getting more stable/accurate at longer D.
Who has a climate controlled underground range to 200 yards ?

 

[hq]

I'm with 2431XB. They say that some guns will shoot better once the bullet settles down.

This is possible. There are a number of factors affecting bullet flight path and it's never straight or perfectly arced due to just gravity and wind deflection. The stabilization effect of spinning isn't unlike that of a top, in very tiny degree of a cork-screw pattern in flight, and it isn't far-fetched or impossible that at some velocity/distance/rotation combinations the bullet is actually closer to intended flight path and the consistency is higher.

This is speculation of course, but if observations of relatively better accuracy at longer distances are consistent, this is a possible explanation.

 

[Bart B.]

No one has taken him up on the challenge even though many were claiming they could prove it up until he made the offer

If you read the stuff in my earlier post #9, you'll see it was first proved by A. Mallorca over a century ago to be factual. Others have proved it since; Geoffery Kolbe, for example. And all those people adjusting the barrel frequency tuning weights so bullets leave at the right place on the muzzle axis up swing so those with longer barrel times (lower muzzle velocity) will depart at slightly higher angles above the line of sight. Faster bullets leave at lower angles. Here's Kolbe's page tha may help you understand:

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/barrel_vibrations.htm

Nowhere have I seen Brian Litz comment on the information in those links. There's no evidence he has challenged its authenticity. Especially that shown in Varmint Al Harrel's pages at

http://www.varmintal.com/ahunt.htm

regarding tuners and barrel whip angle versus bullet exit time.

 

[sage5907]

Your scenario happens to me all the time and with more than one rifle. It's common for me to shoot slightly more than minute of angle at 100 yards and then on the same day shoot less than minute of angle at 200, 300, 400 and even 500 yards. I sometimes think it has more to do with concentration than rifle performance and the longer the distance the harder I concentrate on making a good shot. One of my limitations is that I'm a hunter and I never use a solid rest. I always use a shooting stick and that same slop or wobble with a shooting stick that is present at long distance is always present at 100 yards.

 

[M1key]

I have in the past shot a few five-shot groups from my Rem 700 VSSF/12x Leupold with Federal Match 168 that measured .75 at 100 yards and .75 at 200 yards. Only a few data points I know but it seemed to work in those instances. I made the claim once on a forum (THR?) and got grief for it. On one occasion I shot five at 100 yds into .25 inches (one round hole--wish I saved the target) so I don't know what that adds to the equation.

I did have a high power match shooter friend who was an engineer at Sandia National Labs state that the boattail bullet begins to stabilize ("go to sleep") at around 150 yards or so and often results in tighter 200 yard groups. Those same results were reported by another friend of mine shooting his .308 Remington 700 20 inch barrel.

An article by the "legendary" Elmer Keith made a similar claim (with targets) back when he was contributing editor for Guns and Ammo magazine regarding flat base vs boattail bullets out to 300 yards with a 300 Weatherby (I believe). Someone ought to research that one...

I rarely shoot the rifle much now due to age, eyes, bad shoulder.

M