Is M193 safe to shoot in .223 chambers?

[UrbanHermit]

Again M193 is NOT the same as 223 and is loaded hotter to military specs. XM193 is loaded to 223 specs. If the manufacturers are not labeling their ammo correctly then they are opening themselves to lawsuits.

Do you have any sources showing that M193 is loaded to higher pressure than .223? I have not seen a single such claim anywhere except in forums, and the claim seems to be based on the assumption that M193 is 5.56 NATO ammunition. I don't see how it can be 5.56 NATO ammunition when it predates the development of 5.56 NATO by 17 years. The cartridge specifications I've seen for the M193 round, including pressure and velocity, are identical to the .223 Remington. Some have said that the military measures pressure differently, but I have not seen anything that authoritatively states or proves that M193 is loaded to higher pressure than .223 Remington in the way that the 62 grain M855 does, which was developed 17 years later. The velocity suggests that it is not loaded to higher pressure, but this is not always a reliable indicator.

 

[12Bravo20]

Of course it's "mil spec". It's a military designation for .223. Which source states that it is loaded to higher pressure than .223? I know that 5.56 NATO is higher pressure, but that was invented 17 years after the M193. You can't automatically assume it's higher pressure than .223 just because it's 5.56 if it literally isn't 5.56.

Again read all of the source we linked. Yes the original 223/5.56 that was developed for the military and adopted as the M193 in 1963 was loaded hotter and to higher pressures than the civilian 223 that was released to the public in 1964.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Because then you would know which chamber your Ruger truly has.
As I said before, it wouldn't surprise me if Ruger stamped .223 Remington on the barrel, but cut the chamber to 5.56 NATO specs anyway as a CYA move.

I suggest you shoot only commercially labelled .223 Remington. This will remove all doubt.

Right now it's much easier to find boxes of ammo that say "5.56" on them. Whether that means "NATO" or not is something I still don't know.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Again read all of the source we linked. Yes the original 223/5.56 that was developed for the military and adopted as the M193 in 1963 was loaded hotter and to higher pressures than the civilian 223 that was released to the public in 1964.

That's a lot of reading. Can you be more specific?

 

[12Bravo20]

OKAY one last time, read all of the links that have been provided to you, they will in fact answer the questions for you.

 

[UrbanHermit]

OKAY one last time, read all of the links that have been provided to you, they will in fact answer the questions for you.

You can't just quote the line? You're going to make me read all of that?

 

[12Bravo20]

Right now it's much easier to find boxes of ammo that say "5.56" on them. Whether that means "NATO" or not is something I still don't know.

Again, just because it says 5.56 on the box does NOT mean the tit is M193 or that it is loaded to military specs. Here is another perfect example for you, Go try to by 30-06 ammo in Europe. Over there it will all be labeled as 7.62X63

 

[12Bravo20]

You can't just quote the line? You're going to make me read all of that?

No I am not going to quote the line since it is obvious that you want to argue and not believe any of what we are saying. I recommend that you read the full articles so that you have a full understanding of the differences.

 

[entropy]

Right now it's much easier to find boxes of ammo that say "5.56" on them. Whether that means "NATO" or not is something I still don't know.

It's also easier to find ammo labelled ".357 Magnum" than ".38 Colt" to put in your Colt New Model Army, and it will chamber, but after you fire the first round, you'll have a new name; "Lefty."

 

[Slamfire]

Government Boy may drop in and tell us the current pressure ratings for military ammunition. Since day one, all the 5.56 had was velocity. If you search the early literature, the round was supposed to be 50,000 cup, then it got bumped up to 52,000 cup, to get the velocity up, and the Army has continued to bump the velocity, and pressure of the round, particularly since the introduction of the M4, which has a shorter barrel than an M16. Government Boy may be able to tell us the current pressure of the latest round, but we can't find that out on our own, as the Army has taken the latest ammunition specs behind their super secret firewalls. Rumor is, its hot!, hot!, hot!

The military makes their ammunition to shoot in their rifles. They have modified their rifles so the things will function with super hot military rounds. If you stick a military round in your favorite boom stick and it goes Kaboom, it is not their fault. It is yours. And since you are stuck using civilian rifles, I would be very cautious about using military ammunition. Especially if it is old.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Again, just because it says 5.56 on the box does NOT mean the tit is M193 or that it is loaded to military specs. Here is another perfect example for you, Go try to by 30-06 ammo in Europe. Over there it will all be labeled as 7.62X63

So then how do I find out if I can shoot it or not?

 

[entropy]

Again, have a chamber cast done; If it mics out as .223 Remington, shoot only .223 Remington ammo in it. If it mics out as .223 Wylde, you can shoot commercial 5.56 in it, as well as .223 Remington. If it mics out as 5.56mm (5.56NATO) you can also shoot both in that chambering.
Can we make it any simpler for you?

 

[UrbanHermit]

Government Boy may drop in and tell us the current pressure ratings for military ammunition. Since day one, all the 5.56 had was velocity. If you search the early literature, the round was supposed to be 50,000 cup, then it got bumped up to 52,000 cup, to get the velocity up, and the Army has continued to bump the velocity, and pressure of the round, particularly since the introduction of the M4, which has a shorter barrel than an M16. Government Boy may be able to tell us the current pressure of the latest round, but we can't find that out on our own, as the Army has taken the latest ammunition specs behind their super secret firewalls. Rumor is, its hot!, hot!, hot!

The military makes their ammunition to shoot in their rifles. They have modified their rifles so the things will function with super hot military rounds. If you stick a military round in your favorite boom stick and it goes Kaboom, it is not their fault. It is yours. And since you are stuck using civilian rifles, I would be very cautious about using military ammunition. Especially if it is old.

All of the literature I have read describes the M193 as being identical to .223 Remington, and predating the 5.56 NATO.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Again, have a chamber cast done; If it mics out as .223 Remington, shoot only .223 Remington ammo in it. If it mics out as .223 Wylde, you can shoot commercial 5.56 in it, as well as .223 Remington. If it mics out as 5.56mm (5.56NATO) you can also shoot both in that chambering.
Can we make it any simpler for you?

None of that is necessarily relevant. It doesn't answer the question as to whether ammunition labelled "M193" can be shot in a rifle marked ".223 Remington". Nobody has shown me any source stating that the M193 round is hotter or in any way distinct from .223 Remington. Nobody has shown me any source stating that M193 ammunition is 5.56 NATO ammunition. Nobody has explained how that could even be possible given that it predates the development of 5.56 NATO by 17 years. The sources I've read exclusively associate the NATO designation with the 62 grain steel core ammo of the 80s and other rounds that were developed years after the M193. They say that M193 is a military designation for .223 Remington.

 

[okie ruger shooter]

After all this confusing back and forth, if you are not sure just buy and shoot what is stamped on your barrel.

Simple as that.

if stamped.223 buy .223 ammo, if stamped 5.56 then buy 5.56 ammo.

 

[243winxb]

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6208280&postcount=23.

The MAP for 223 is 55K psi and the MAP for the 5.56 NATO is 60k psi, /QUOTE]

This debate has been going on forever, since the internet started.

 

[UrbanHermit]

After all this confusing back and forth, if you are not sure just buy and shoot what is stamped on your barrel.

Simple as that.

if stamped.223 buy .223 ammo, if stamped 5.56 then buy 5.56 ammo.

No it's not as simple as that. Most of the ammunition available locally ambiguously says "M193/5.56" on it. It doesn't say "NATO", so I can't be certain that it's 5.56 NATO. M193 and 5.56 were originally destinations for .223 Remington. When you look up M193, the specs are identical to .223 Remington. When you look up the issues with shooting 5.56 in .223 rifles, they are all associated with the 62 grain M855 ammo that was developed years after the M193. It seems reasonable to conclude that the M193 should be perfectly safe to shoot in a .223, but the boxes say "5.56", not ".223". I can't get a definitive answer from anyone supported by any evidence or logic or authority whatsoever whether this ammunition with this specific designation can be used in a rifle stamped .223. I need to know because this is the ammunition that is available to me. This isn't 2013 and I can't just go and stock up on any ammo I want. I'm limited to what's in stock.

 

[UrbanHermit]

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6208280&postcount=23.
This debate has been going on forever, since the internet started.

The only conclusion I can draw based on everything I've seen is that M193 ammunition literally is .223 Remington ammunition.

 

[okie ruger shooter]

No it's not as simple as that. Most of the ammunition available locally ambiguously says "M193/5.56" on it. It doesn't say "NATO", so I can't be certain that it's 5.56 NATO. M193 and 5.56 were originally destinations for .223 Remington. When you look up M193, the specs are identical to .223 Remington. When you look up the issues with shooting 5.56 in .223 rifles, they are all associated with the 62 grain M855 ammo that was developed years after the M193. It seems reasonable to conclude that the M193 should be perfectly safe to shoot in a .223, but the boxes say "5.56", not ".223". I can't get a definitive answer from anyone supported by any evidence or logic or authority whatsoever whether this ammunition with this specific designation can be used in a rifle stamped .223. I need to know because this is the ammunition that is available to me. This isn't 2013 and I can't just go and stock up on any ammo I want. I'm limited to what's in stock.

What is so hard to understand? the box says 5.56 so it more than likely is loaded to 5.56 designated pressures. if your rifle is stamped .223 it will have a short headspacing and can possibly be damaged by ANY ammo marked as 5.56.

 

[UrbanHermit]

What is so hard to understand? the box says 5.56 so it more than likely is loaded to 5.56 designated pressures. if your rifle is stamped .223 it will have a short headspacing and can possibly be damaged by ANY ammo marked as 5.56.

But that isn't likely at all. Every source I've seen shows M193 designated ammo as being identical to .223. Also, how can it be 5.56 NATO if this loading was produced in 1963 and 5.56 NATO was developed in 1980? How could it be unsafe in a .223 if the pressure issues are the result of a completely different round using a long bullet that touches the lands in a .223 chamber?

 

[UrbanHermit]

What is so hard to understand? the box says 5.56 so it more than likely is loaded to 5.56 designated pressures. if your rifle is stamped .223 it will have a short headspacing and can possibly be damaged by ANY ammo marked as 5.56.

And why do Federal and Winchester M193 boxes just say "5.56", not "5.56 NATO"? If it's just plain 5.56, that's another name for .223 as far as I've heard. But nobody seems to know for sure. These are the two most popular cartridges in the country and nobody can definitively answer the most basic interchangeability question. Very disturbing.

 

[entropy]

If it's just plain 5.56, that's another name for .223

No; it's not, and the difference has been explained to you by at least three people here with much experience and knowledge on the subject; Two Armorers and a Service Rifle competitor.
Yet you keep miscomprehendingly quoting Wikipedia instead. I will try one more time, then leave you with my final suggestion.
I would like it to be load some Mk262 in a .223 chambered 40-x and fire it, but that would be irresponsible of me, so

OK, let's put our thinking caps on here;
5.56NATO should only be fired in 5.56NATO or .223 Wylde chambers. .223 can be fired in any chamber you'll encounter on a rifle of that caliber; .223, .223 Wylde, or 5.56NATO.
The logical (and here's when you keep tripping up) solution is to shoot only .223 Remington labelled ammunition through any rifle chambered .223, .223 Wylde, or 5.56.
DO NOT BUY 5.56 (M193 or XM193) OR 5.56 NATO (M855 Green Tip) IF YOU ARE THAT WORRIED ABOUT IT.

 

[UrbanHermit]

No; it's not, and the difference has been explained to you by at least three people here with much experience and knowledge on the subject; Two Armorers and a Service Rifle competitor.
Yet you keep miscomprehendingly quoting Wikipedia instead. I will try one more time, then leave you with my final suggestion.
I would like it to be load some Mk262 in a .223 chambered 40-x and fire it, but that would be irresponsible of me, so

OK, let's put our thinking caps on here;
5.56NATO should only be fired in 5.56NATO or .223 Wylde chambers. .223 can be fired in any chamber you'll encounter on a rifle of that caliber; .223, .223 Wylde, or 5.56NATO.
The logical (and here's when you keep tripping up) solution is to shoot only .223 Remington labelled ammunition through any rifle chambered .223, .223 Wylde, or 5.56.
DO NOT BUY 5.56 (M193 or XM193) OR 5.56 NATO (M855 Green Tip) IF YOU ARE THAT WORRIED ABOUT IT.

The boxes of ammo in question do not say "NATO" anywhere on them.

M193 predates 5.56 NATO by 17 years.

Specs for M193 are identical to .223 Remington in every piece of literature I've seen.

M193 and "5.56" (without the later NATO designation) have both been referred to as military designations for .223 Remington in everything I've read.

Nobody has shown me a single piece of literature confirming that M193 is loaded to higher pressures than .223 Remington ammunition.

Nobody has shown me that interchangeability issues are due to anything other than pressure and COL of the M855 round that was developed 17 years after the M193.

 

[danez71]

I'm getting a Ruger Bolt Action that is advertised as being chambered in .223.

Rugers are marketed as .223 and 5.56 NATO.

The American Ranch model is marketed as 5.56 NATO whereas the regular American is marketed as a .223 Remington.

This is what the manual says and most likely exactlt what Ruger will tell you through email.

AMMUNITION
The RUGER AMERICAN RIFLE® is chambered for many of the most popular factory-loaded cartridges manufactured in accordance with U.S. industry practice. The particular caliber for each rifle is rollmarked on the barrel. Use cartridges only of the designated caliber that is marked on the barrel. Please see “Warning - Ammunition” and “Warning - Loading” on page 14.

To get anything different I think you'd have to ask about the difference between an American. 223 vs an American Ranch 5.56


I can't imagine they be different other than barrel length but it seems that ruger must have a reason to go out if thier way to intentionally mark them differently.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Rugers are marketed as .223 and 5.56 NATO.

The American Ranch model is marketed as 5.56 NATO whereas the regular American is marketed as a .223 Remington.

This is what the manual says and most likely exactlt what Ruger will tell you through email.



To get anything different I think you'd have to ask about the difference between an American. 223 vs an American Ranch 5.56


I can't imagine they be different other than barrel length but it seems that ruger must have a reason to go out if thier way to intentionally mark them differently.

Exactly. The ranch model says "5.56", while the predator, which is what I want, says ".223".

The predator accepts and is shipped with AR magazines. There is no warning against the use of 5.56 ammunition anywhere on the website, or in the PDF manual. It is not conceivable that Ruger is ignorant of the fact that .223 and .556 are viewed as interchangeable by millions of people. It is not conceivable that they would ship a rifle with AR mags that cannot shoot 5.56 ammunition without some kind of highly visible warning.

Very confusing. Very disturbing. Very unnecessary.