Is old ammo dangerous?

[mustanger98]

Not too long ago, I shot .45-70 ammo from the 1880's. A couple of duds, but most fired OK and with no problems.

Just a couple of weeks back, I think it was, I saw a show on the History Channel that discussed Custer and Little Bighorn. They said the .45-70 ammo issued to the troops was copper cased. They said a big part of the jamming problem was that when the copper case obturated, it'd didn't "de-obturate" like a brass case. My question is when did they change to brass cases? IIRC, it wasn't a long time later.

 

[MountainPeak]

I've never had problems with old ammo.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Mustanger98,

The ammo was dated 1888 and was the Model 1888 with the tinned cases and the 500 grain infantry load. I fired a few in a carbine and the recoil was pretty nasty. I can see why they had a special carbine load.

I think it was 1888 when they went to brass at least for standard ammo, though they had been experimenting with brass for a few years before that.

The cases Custer was using (1876) were thin copper with the old Benet or cup primers that look like rimfires. I am attaching a pic of two .50-70 rounds; the one on the left is the folded head Martin primer, the one on the right is the Benet or cup primer. You can see the dents in the case that hold the internal cup that supports the priming compound. In spite of appearances, it is center fire. IIRC, the .45-70 never used the Martin primer, only the Benet.

Jim

 

[mustanger98]

Hey Jim, this subject seems to be getting a bit more interesting.

If I'm understanding right, the Benet primers would be loaded inside the case, followed by crimping, then charging and seating the bullet. How close did I get?

The Martin primer- how much like today's Berdan and Boxer primers are they?

 

[Ivy Mike]

Some old ammo is dangerous.

A buddy had some mil-surp .303 that would hangfire. He pulled the trigger on one round and it hung...except he didn't realize it. He took the rifle down from his shoulder just in time for it to go off. The surprise and the recoil were enough to make him drop the rifle.

His ego really got a good beating that day.

 

[Sunray]

"...cruise to the Caribbean Islands..." Naw. Pirates and drug smugglers. Hellbore, your da would be teased senseless around here. Used to tell my ma I was going to put her in an old folks home just to watch her head explode. The fake mice were lots of fun too.
How ammo has been stored is the only consideration. The best .303 ball I've ever used was while in the Queen's Service back in '84. It was the Mk VII 'not for use in synchronized guns' ammo of 1944 manufacture. Not a single misfire or any other problems. Fabulous stuff.

 

[thorn726]

OK - most of you seem to think its no problem, but at least one mentioned a few duds-
SO- guys, are there generally duds in a new box? or do you think the duds were mroe a result of poor manufacutre in older stuff, as in it didnt go bad , it was made poorly, ???

i ask because all i have is fairly old, but probably less than ten years, found on a hauling job, and my gun nut friend said i should replace it with brand new in case of SHTF, it may not be as reliable, i tend to think its ok, and as long as i can crank off three or four, well...

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Mustanger98,

The cup looked a bit like a large primer cup. It was open on one end and had a depression and flash hole in the middle of the other. The priming compound was placed in the depression, then the cup was inserted in the drawn case with that end toward the head of the case, so the primer compound was in the center and the cup acted as the anvil. The crimps in the case held the cup in place.

The Martin primer was a different idea. The case was folded at the head so it formed a primer into which priming compound and an anvil were placed. It looks almost like a modern cartridge with a separate primer, but what appears to be the primer is actually a part of the case. I am attaching a picture of how they were made.

The whole problem was that at that time Frankford Arsenal had not yet been able to draw brass, but they could draw thin copper, which is a lot softer and more ductile than brass. By the 1870's commercial companies were drawing brass cases routinely, but at that time mostly short cases instead of the longer .45-70 case. Also, the government always wanted to have its own ammunition supply rather than depend on contractors, so FA kept on working to play catch-up.

Jim

 

[mustanger98]

Jim, That's a lot like what I pictured on the Benets, but I would've never guessed Martins were done the way that picture shows. I can see it a lot better now. Thanks. Glad we aren't stuck with Benet or Martin either one now.

 

[RoyG]

Genuine 1940s U.S. production

 

[LDThornton]

mustanger98........300 Savage ammo is not collectable and is still being manufactured.