Is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm

[Defensory]

I wouldn't feel underarmed at all with a 1911 like the Kimber Raptor, which gives you 8+1 capacity. Which is still 50% more rounds than the standard police revolver of old, in a weapon that shoots and reloads faster than a revolver.

Two extra magazines would give you a very respectable 25 rounds total. I could live with that in a law enforcement setting.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Now In a situation like that, I was glad to be carrying my 16 round G22 with 2 spare mags. He had a firepower advantage and good cover.

If you're dealing with those kinds of situations, you'd do better with a rifle to be honest. Any rifle.

 

[Powderman]

As much as I love the 1911, I wouldnt carry it for work because of capacity. Here in Phoenix we have a problem with Coyotes (human smugglers) fighting each other. They have rolling shootouts and hit squads. Couple weeks ago 4 guys rolled up to a house...2 in front and 2 on the side, and dumped something like 100 rounds into the house using rifles. They were caught that night and openly admitted that the only reason they didnt shoot it out was because they used all their ammo at the house.

The closest Ive come to getting in a shooting on the job was when my partner and I ran into a guy who was in the middle of an armed robbery spree. When we rolled up on him he had a 12 gauge, that he just stole from someone down the block at gunpoint, and he pumped the action when he spotted us. He was behind an F150 and took a lot of explaining that dropping the gun was a good idea, though not in so nice of terms, before he gave up. When we examined the shotgun, he had loaded it but somehow jammed the thing when he was cycling the action.

Now In a situation like that, I was glad to be carrying my 16 round G22 with 2 spare mags. He had a firepower advantage and good cover.

Off duty Im just as likely to be carrying my Ruger SP101 as my Glock because Im not worried about those kind of situations.

BUT....that doesnt make the 1911 obsolete in any way. You just have to be aware of the lower round count. Plenty of LEOs use the Sig 220 and have no complaints.

P.S. the SF unit I worked with in 05 carried Beretta 92s. I asked them about it and they said the Berettas (not M9s) were accurate, reliable, held a lot of rounds, had good penetration, could get ammo at any FOB, and the 9mm worked fine if your hits were good. One guy did carry a custom Colt though.
__________________

Which is why you also have one of these in your car...

The non-military version of Carbine, 5.56x45, M4--also known affectionately as a Colt LE6920, with 7 magazines, each loaded with 28 rounds of Federal TRU .223 ammo.

 

[loop]

In terms of capacity, how many misses do you need?

In terms of mechanics, the 1911 is a marvel of technology.

If you have not replaced a trigger in a 1911 you have no right to address the issue.

In terms of modern technology, it would be too expensive to produce today.

History will look upon the 1911 as one of the marvels of technology.

When we no longer have primers and brass casings and have moved on to the next step in technology, the 1911 will represent a pinnacle of its day. And, its day will be a century.

If you really have doubts about the state of the art in terms of technology take a look at the trigger bar in a Glock and the trigger in a 1911.

Nothing new.

 

[C-grunt]

Dereck Zeanah

If you're dealing with those kinds of situations, you'd do better with a rifle to be honest. Any rifle.

OHHH trust me. My fellow officers and I have been trying to get rifles in our patrol cars for quite some time now. We have the "Patrol Rifle" program which puts like 20 some odd rifles into patrol. But on any given day there is like maybe 3 guys in all of Phoenix with one. Not very comforting when that guy could be about 50 mile away. Luckily one of my squadmates is one of the rifle operators.

I have a nice little Bushmaster that would work well. According to the Firearms Instructors/Detail for the department when the higher ups do allow us pee-ons to carry effective equipment, it will be mandated Colts and Bushmasters.

 

[blackcash88]

It's biggest drawback is limited magazine capacity. That, however, can be rectified to a degree by doing reload drills on a regular basis.

They make high capacity 1911s these days. I have a Kimber Pro BP Ten II that holds 13+1 on board. Since it has a polymer frame, it's no heaver than an all metal single stack 1911 when both are fully loaded. The lighter frame offsets the weight of almost double the capacity of a single stack 1911. Although the grip is a little more square, it is no thicker than a 1911 with standard wood grips at the thickest point. Still has great ergonomics and awesome "pointability". Very reliable and accurate, too. The ONLY downside is it takes proprietary Mec-Gar magazines that are a bit expensive. But, it's always a trade off and I'll take the extra rounds, thank you very much.

 

[blackcash88]

If you really have doubts about the state of the art in terms of technology take a look at the trigger bar in a Glock and the trigger in a 1911.

Nothing new.

What the hell are you talking about? They are COMPLETELY different. The 1911 has a trigger BOW and NOT a trigger BAR. The BOW is directly behind the trigger and goes around both sides of the magazine. The Glock trigger BAR is above the magazine and only on the right side of the frame.

The 1911 trigger has NO pivot axis as it moves straight back when pulled. The Glock trigger DOES have a pivot axis which it rotates around. The Glock trigger does NOT travel straight back.

Completely different systems so try again next time.

 

[Defensory]

Did anybody else here watch America's Most Wanted the other night? The FBI Hostage Rescue Team was featured.

They rappelled down the side of a building, blew out a couple of fairly small windows, and entered with Kimber 1911's drawn. Makes sense---going through small windows, you don't want to be lugging a comparatively bulky M4.

I believe the 1911 gets more use by elite units like the FBI HRT and LAPD SWAT, than some people here realize.

1911 "outdated" for law enforcement?! Yeah, right!

 

[HouTexDavid]

Well this won't answer the question, but it might be of interest: the next-to-last Houston PD officer killed on duty here (2003) was killed with a jammed Browning Hi-Power in his hand. He walked in on bad guys robbing a check-cashing establishment (I believe). He got off one round, which I think went into the ceiling. His BHP jammed and he was shot dead.

HPD statements in the press indicated that the gun did not fail (not exactly sure how they concluded that after the fact - the newspaper account stated that they test-fired the gun and could not get it to jam; not sure this proves no failure during the fight) Anyway, HPD spokesman was quoted as conjecturing that the officer "limp-wristed" the BHP, causing it to jam.

My point: either the gun or the officer failed. If it was the officer, perhaps not enough training? Other conjecture was that the officer may have been injured in his shooting arm. I suspect that HPD knows more, but chose not to.

In spite of such a tragic failure in a gun fight, I still think that SA "traditional" military auto sidearms - like the 1911 or BHP -- are perfectly good LEO arms WHEN THE OFFICER IS WELL TRAINED AND WELL PRACTICED.

PS the bad guys were caught and convicted and, if I remember correctly were admministered the "final and definitive" punishment. We Texans don't take well to murdering our LEOs.

 

[chieftain]

WHEN THE OFFICER IS WELL TRAINED AND WELL PRACTICED

It doesn't matter whether the officers weapon is a baton or hi tech SWAT super gizmo. Single action users must train for/with the on off switch. Striker gun users must train to keep their fingers off the trigger. P7 users must be taught to squeeze, etc... and on and on. Every system has it's problems and strengths. In the end it is about the people, not the weapons.

Less money for equipment, more money for training. In the end it is always the same answer. The Quality of the people.

It is about software, not hardware.

We have a lot of good weapons to choose from. NYPD had several Glock 19's jam during firefights too. Stuff happens. If the troops have a lot of GOOD training, and get to practice that training, suddenly that dept gets a reputation of being very "Lucky".

It so amazes me how hard lucky people work at being lucky.

No such thing as to much good training. Follow up with quality practice.

Again, it's about the software, not the hardware.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[skinewmexico]

I thought Springfield had the contract for all those HRT guns.

 

[R12GS]

If you're dealing with those kinds of situations, you'd do better with a rifle to be honest. Any rifle.

I'm sure most officers are well aware of that. The problem lies when we approach the door of a domestic violence situation and someone starts firing rounds through the front door and the officers are pinned between the garage and the entrance way. Or when officers are in an apartment complex and walking up the stairwell and the same thing happens except they're pinned underneath it for cover. You really can't walk up to every house or apartment complex with a rifle, unfortunately its deemed too offensive and scary.