Is there a gun you WON'T buy becasue of its history?
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Joe Demko
Member
You undermined your own point on this. You told me, basically, that relics preserve family folklore. That is not at all the same thing as preserving history. Case in point: I've been shown countless WWII relics that all had virtually the exact same folktale attached to them. "Daddy/Papaw/Uncle Seth took it off a dead German." If the item in question is a pistol, change that to "took it off a German officer."
Now, even a little research will show that American soldiers in WWII (and Korea and Vietnam and...) had a vigorous souvenier market amongst themselves. Stuff got traded back and forth and just plain bought and sold outright. Why have I never heard "Daddy/Papaw/Uncle Seth traded a bottle of brandy for it to a corporal from Peoria?"
Family folktales are nice, but they are not history. Primary sources like diaries and and such, which are the words and memories of those who were there are history. Daddy/Papaw/Uncle Seth's pistol that he perhaps "got off a dead German officer" is just a curio.
JWF III
Member
Please educate me on how I did this. My point is that if there is nothing there to capture tha kids interest on a subject, the question will not be asked. Thus the history will not be taught.
None of my milsurps have any personal history behind them. I know the story of how my father acquired a couple of them. But they are there to bring history to a more hands on state, for my kids.
Couldn't agree with you more. But the way our politicians listen to their "people", that may be the only thing that gets their attention. However, voting them out of office is the preferred method.
Wyman
Janos Dracwlya
Member
A former acquaintance of mine, and one of the people who turned me on to collecting mil-surp rifles, told me this story.
Many years ago, he was at a gun show and he found a pretty nice looking Lee-Enfield. He picked it up to examine it. When he did so, he noticed that it had at least half a dozen stampings indicating that the rifle had been returned to an armoury for servicing. He explained that rifles would be serviced and get one of these stamps when they broke, when the soldier who carried them had been wounded or killed, or when they were found abandoned on the battlefield. There may be other cases, but that's what he told me. Anyway, he said that, realizing that this gun had possibly had seven owners who were wounded or killed, he couldn't put the thing down fast enough. He told me the story years after the fact and he still got the creeps just thinking about it.
Many years ago, he was at a gun show and he found a pretty nice looking Lee-Enfield. He picked it up to examine it. When he did so, he noticed that it had at least half a dozen stampings indicating that the rifle had been returned to an armoury for servicing. He explained that rifles would be serviced and get one of these stamps when they broke, when the soldier who carried them had been wounded or killed, or when they were found abandoned on the battlefield. There may be other cases, but that's what he told me. Anyway, he said that, realizing that this gun had possibly had seven owners who were wounded or killed, he couldn't put the thing down fast enough. He told me the story years after the fact and he still got the creeps just thinking about it.
Weapons with a documented provenance will probably never get in my home because market demand will jack up the price too high for me to pay.
A gun used in a suicide? I wouldn't hunt them down, I would take them if offered to remove them from the suffering familiy.
Weapons produced before I could make a cognizant decision about whether slave labor was involved? Old pieces before say, 1971, probably. Current new in the box, what are we supporting? If anything, this discussion has prompted an awareness that I shouldn't buy any new Chinese AK.
On the other hand, I've trained, shot, carried, cleaned, inventoried, and finally. loathed the 1911. Like horses and 55 Chevies, they have become the most admired pet objects in the firearms industry. And like the hotrod industry selling small block chevy parts, the 1911 industry sells all sorts of mods, improvements, and gimmicks to improve the functioning, reliability, and accuracy of what is obviously Brownings's less than perfect design. If it was perfect, we wouldn't bother.
The Hipower is the true Gen 1 of all modern combat pistols - double action, double stacked. The 1911? It has a place as a historic relic, and that's the best can be said for it. Not being available from the DCM is probably the best thing that ever happened - they were sidelined because they were used up junk. The American government doesn't need the liability issues. It's successor - politically appointed as a trade for the use of Italian military bases, is nonetheless a superior duty firearm.
The Beretta 92 can directly trace it's mechanical history to the Walther P38 - a Nazi era weapon. The M60 feed mechanism can directly trace it's origins to the FG42, the Kevalr Helmet can directly trace it's origins to the Stahlhelm. Those mechanical origins have nothing to do with the philosophical mindset of the administration that invented it.
It's an American tradition to absorb the mechanical ingenuity of our defeated opponents. Might be one of the things that keeps us on top. Buying or not buying the relics of past conflict has nothing to do with the object itself, and everything to do with our emotional assessment of it.
If it bothers you, it bothers you. Later in life, it might not. I bought an LCP after Bill Ruger passed on. You can't hold a grudge too long, you might find yourself on the wrong side of it eventually.
A gun used in a suicide? I wouldn't hunt them down, I would take them if offered to remove them from the suffering familiy.
Weapons produced before I could make a cognizant decision about whether slave labor was involved? Old pieces before say, 1971, probably. Current new in the box, what are we supporting? If anything, this discussion has prompted an awareness that I shouldn't buy any new Chinese AK.
On the other hand, I've trained, shot, carried, cleaned, inventoried, and finally. loathed the 1911. Like horses and 55 Chevies, they have become the most admired pet objects in the firearms industry. And like the hotrod industry selling small block chevy parts, the 1911 industry sells all sorts of mods, improvements, and gimmicks to improve the functioning, reliability, and accuracy of what is obviously Brownings's less than perfect design. If it was perfect, we wouldn't bother.
The Hipower is the true Gen 1 of all modern combat pistols - double action, double stacked. The 1911? It has a place as a historic relic, and that's the best can be said for it. Not being available from the DCM is probably the best thing that ever happened - they were sidelined because they were used up junk. The American government doesn't need the liability issues. It's successor - politically appointed as a trade for the use of Italian military bases, is nonetheless a superior duty firearm.
The Beretta 92 can directly trace it's mechanical history to the Walther P38 - a Nazi era weapon. The M60 feed mechanism can directly trace it's origins to the FG42, the Kevalr Helmet can directly trace it's origins to the Stahlhelm. Those mechanical origins have nothing to do with the philosophical mindset of the administration that invented it.
It's an American tradition to absorb the mechanical ingenuity of our defeated opponents. Might be one of the things that keeps us on top. Buying or not buying the relics of past conflict has nothing to do with the object itself, and everything to do with our emotional assessment of it.
If it bothers you, it bothers you. Later in life, it might not. I bought an LCP after Bill Ruger passed on. You can't hold a grudge too long, you might find yourself on the wrong side of it eventually.
oldfool
Member
"So am I racist because I have a (original) Nazi Swastika Flag hanging in my gunroom"
Nope.
OP did not ask me what I think you would or would not do, asked "me" what I would do or would not do.
(me, American, mostly German folks being why I exist, so me racist maybe, I dunno)
I choose what flag I hang (inside or outside MY house), MY reasons. You choose what you do, your own reasons; so long as you don't hang it on my porch or try to put it on my living room wall. Mutual respect, until proven otherwise.
"What side my ancestors were on" pretty much depends on where/when.
(Not inclined to think you should ask my permission to do your thing, nor much inclined to think I should ask yours. For a non-political forum, which does it better than anyone else out there does it, sure are a lot of people trying to make it "political". (Guess I should have been astute enough to say I would never fly a flag celebrating the Brady Bunch, my fault)
"Did you live here during the fight for changing the state flag?"
Yup,
despicable act by scoundrels on the public payroll, classic misdirection play, divide and conquer, keep 'em looking at whatever flag flies over the building, instead of what happens under the roof. I preferred it stay the same (and me being an ex-Yankee, ~40 years ago) , but mostly didn't think it much mattered what was on the dome (Mickey Mouse flag or Skull & Crossbones), a tad more concerned about what they were going to do underneath it.
but I hope this thread don't get locked, because of me, cause it do sound pretty political
Nope.
OP did not ask me what I think you would or would not do, asked "me" what I would do or would not do.
(me, American, mostly German folks being why I exist, so me racist maybe, I dunno)
I choose what flag I hang (inside or outside MY house), MY reasons. You choose what you do, your own reasons; so long as you don't hang it on my porch or try to put it on my living room wall. Mutual respect, until proven otherwise.
"What side my ancestors were on" pretty much depends on where/when.
(Not inclined to think you should ask my permission to do your thing, nor much inclined to think I should ask yours. For a non-political forum, which does it better than anyone else out there does it, sure are a lot of people trying to make it "political". (Guess I should have been astute enough to say I would never fly a flag celebrating the Brady Bunch, my fault)
"Did you live here during the fight for changing the state flag?"
Yup,
despicable act by scoundrels on the public payroll, classic misdirection play, divide and conquer, keep 'em looking at whatever flag flies over the building, instead of what happens under the roof. I preferred it stay the same (and me being an ex-Yankee, ~40 years ago) , but mostly didn't think it much mattered what was on the dome (Mickey Mouse flag or Skull & Crossbones), a tad more concerned about what they were going to do underneath it.
but I hope this thread don't get locked, because of me, cause it do sound pretty political
Almost all the 'brains' of N.A.S.A. were ex-Nazi Scientists brought over in 'project paperclip'...
Guess a lot of THR members must have boycoted and snubbed the Space Program too.
Lol...
Dillinger-wise..."No"...not making 'excuses' for anyone...simply saying that calling him a 'famous murderer' is inocorrect, since he was not known to have been a murderer, and was never 'famous' for being a murderer.
Why should anyone care about facts?
Amatter of taste maybe...
But this thread really does show over-and-over, how fatuity of second hand emotion or being 'run' by introjected hear-say, propaganda and legend, is a very popular and high-powered stand-in and substitute for caring about Historical accuracy or facts, at all.
Sad...
Guess a lot of THR members must have boycoted and snubbed the Space Program too.
Lol...
Dillinger-wise..."No"...not making 'excuses' for anyone...simply saying that calling him a 'famous murderer' is inocorrect, since he was not known to have been a murderer, and was never 'famous' for being a murderer.
Why should anyone care about facts?
Amatter of taste maybe...
But this thread really does show over-and-over, how fatuity of second hand emotion or being 'run' by introjected hear-say, propaganda and legend, is a very popular and high-powered stand-in and substitute for caring about Historical accuracy or facts, at all.
Sad...
gidaeon
Member
long as its legal... No. Call me odd, but whether something was used for an awful tragedy or a heroic act, it helps me reflect a bit with solemn respect. Not that I own anything with real history.
If neither was the case I still respect as an inventive tool, a fun toy, ect., Even an inanimate object can be used to aid people in slowing down and remembering. When I go to a certain Air Force museum there are replica's of Little Boy bomb and massively destructive tools of war, why? because it helps see and understand. Its not just "what interesting\cool technology" its wow, such a device killed so many.. men, women, children.., *pause, silent respect* That's serious and hopefully part of the growing process into adulthood.
If neither was the case I still respect as an inventive tool, a fun toy, ect., Even an inanimate object can be used to aid people in slowing down and remembering. When I go to a certain Air Force museum there are replica's of Little Boy bomb and massively destructive tools of war, why? because it helps see and understand. Its not just "what interesting\cool technology" its wow, such a device killed so many.. men, women, children.., *pause, silent respect* That's serious and hopefully part of the growing process into adulthood.
22-rimfire
Member
There aren't any I wouldn't buy or own because of their history. But there are some I choose not to buy due to their quality. Some I wouldn't spend money for, but I probably wouldn't landfill it if someone gave me one.
DawgsFan_07
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I'm not superstitious but having a murder gun would just be too creepy for me.
DawgsFan_07
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BTW, I heard that the Israelis used quite a bit of German weapons and aircraft in their 1948 war with the arabs. Gotta love the irony.
Deltaboy1984
Member
No because a gun is just another tool.
jimmyraythomason
Member
A people defending themselves against one enemy with tools designed by another enemy to be used for their(and others) destruction IS irony in it's simplest form.
travellingJeff
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I agree. If I had a collection of inexpensive, but accurate, Mosins and Mausers, I'd gladly lend them to unarmed friends "when the time was ripe" in America.
It's just a tool, folks. Merely a combination of specific atoms and molecules. It has no inherent evil.
Let me ask you this, lets say that those weapons were melted down, would you ask before you purchased any metal goods if that evil metal was included in them?
It's just a tool, folks. Merely a combination of specific atoms and molecules. It has no inherent evil.
Let me ask you this, lets say that those weapons were melted down, would you ask before you purchased any metal goods if that evil metal was included in them?
Dark Skies
Member
CoRoMo said it "A stolen gun, or one used in a crime".
If the gun happened to have been owned by James, Dillinger, Barrow or similar even the "used in a crime" wouldn't bother me.
If the gun happened to have been owned by James, Dillinger, Barrow or similar even the "used in a crime" wouldn't bother me.
mustang_steve
Member
The Jennings pistols and descendants....but that's more about quality than anything....I feel after making rather bad pistols for so long, the people behind the companies that keep popping up with those designs are destined to continue making bad pistols.
SeekHer
Member
Having lost 80+ members of my family to the Nazis the rifle I used during the Yom Kippur War to shoot Arabs was a Schmidt scoped Mauser K98 with the Wehrmacht stamps on the metal work and over-stamped with the IDF logos...Now that's irony!
Would I buy German/Bavarian/Austrian guns for my own use...Merkel, Krieghoff, Blaser, Sauer, Steyr/Mannlicher, HK, Anschutz, Walther, Feinwerkbau, Mauser, Unique-Alpine --Hell, yes and I have them all, old and new civilian, mil-surp, don't matter...I won't buy a Benz, Porsch, BMW, Audi or Volkswagon but I'll buy their guns...
But I won't buy Colts (may they rot in Hell) because of what they did with the M16, Vietnam and Israel with the cast offs...They were directly responsible for killing or wounding friends and family not only in "The Nam" but in Israel...Luckily I don't have to as I can get a AR15/10 or a 1911A1 from lots of other makers, built far better and in many cases for a lot less money...I'm glad Colt (Rat bastards) lost the military contract for the M4, maybe now they die and I can go and piss on their grave site like I'm going to do to that lying POS Robert S. McNamara's!
I won't buy Ford's because of Henry One's racist, bigoted stance that he'd hire a ****** before he'd ever hire a kyke and his involvement with the publication of the extremely anti Semitic pamphlet "The Elders of Zion" which was a basis for Hitler's "Mien Kampf" nor would I shod any vehicle with his brother-in-laws tires, Firestone...
Would I buy German/Bavarian/Austrian guns for my own use...Merkel, Krieghoff, Blaser, Sauer, Steyr/Mannlicher, HK, Anschutz, Walther, Feinwerkbau, Mauser, Unique-Alpine --Hell, yes and I have them all, old and new civilian, mil-surp, don't matter...I won't buy a Benz, Porsch, BMW, Audi or Volkswagon but I'll buy their guns...
But I won't buy Colts (may they rot in Hell) because of what they did with the M16, Vietnam and Israel with the cast offs...They were directly responsible for killing or wounding friends and family not only in "The Nam" but in Israel...Luckily I don't have to as I can get a AR15/10 or a 1911A1 from lots of other makers, built far better and in many cases for a lot less money...I'm glad Colt (Rat bastards) lost the military contract for the M4, maybe now they die and I can go and piss on their grave site like I'm going to do to that lying POS Robert S. McNamara's!
I won't buy Ford's because of Henry One's racist, bigoted stance that he'd hire a ****** before he'd ever hire a kyke and his involvement with the publication of the extremely anti Semitic pamphlet "The Elders of Zion" which was a basis for Hitler's "Mien Kampf" nor would I shod any vehicle with his brother-in-laws tires, Firestone...
gdcpony
Member
10/22's
Never liked them- always were shoddy to me, but my parents did.
My mom used one I bought for her on herself. She died for her mistake in assuming a stomach wound with a .22 is always survivable. Not the weapon's fault. No logic, just can't look at them as just a POS rifle anymore. Sorry.
Never liked them- always were shoddy to me, but my parents did.
My mom used one I bought for her on herself. She died for her mistake in assuming a stomach wound with a .22 is always survivable. Not the weapon's fault. No logic, just can't look at them as just a POS rifle anymore. Sorry.
Officers'Wife
Member
Before this thread is locked, let me thank those of you that have given me insights on your opinions that differ than mine. Especially NWilliams and Paintballdude. I hope the time comes I can gather more information on the limits of your opinions.
Selena
Selena
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi SeekHer,
For my curiosity, have the present board of directors of Ford Motor published or espoused anti-Semitic literature or organizations? Considering Henry Ford is dead, it seems a bit extreme to boycott the products just because he founded the corporation.
What is your opinion of Fritz Haber who's research in WWI poison gases led to the development of the gas used by the Nazi death camps later?
Item last: During WWII a handgun called the Liberator was distributed behind enemy lines. This was a single shot weapon of dubious quality and manufactured just plain cheap. Should the manufacturer of that weapon be boycotted as well?
FWIW, I agree with you about Colt Industries but for different reasons.
Selena
For my curiosity, have the present board of directors of Ford Motor published or espoused anti-Semitic literature or organizations? Considering Henry Ford is dead, it seems a bit extreme to boycott the products just because he founded the corporation.
What is your opinion of Fritz Haber who's research in WWI poison gases led to the development of the gas used by the Nazi death camps later?
Item last: During WWII a handgun called the Liberator was distributed behind enemy lines. This was a single shot weapon of dubious quality and manufactured just plain cheap. Should the manufacturer of that weapon be boycotted as well?
FWIW, I agree with you about Colt Industries but for different reasons.
Selena
Would you buy Lizzy Borden's axe?
Would you buy Lizzy Borden's axe if the head had been replaced twice and the handle three times? At what point does an object lose it's significance?
The hardest fight for gun rights is separating emotions from the truth. I believe that giving negative value to a firearm due to it's is sentimental nature is doing disservice to the cause by playing into the fears of the same people that would invalidate your rights because of their own personal sentiments.
There is no soul of the gun. Some may be artifacts, mindful artifacts, but owning them is not an endorsement. They are history. And history is a grand lesson for all of us.
Would you buy Lizzy Borden's axe if the head had been replaced twice and the handle three times? At what point does an object lose it's significance?
The hardest fight for gun rights is separating emotions from the truth. I believe that giving negative value to a firearm due to it's is sentimental nature is doing disservice to the cause by playing into the fears of the same people that would invalidate your rights because of their own personal sentiments.
There is no soul of the gun. Some may be artifacts, mindful artifacts, but owning them is not an endorsement. They are history. And history is a grand lesson for all of us.
Joe Demko
Member
What lesson does Lizzy Borden's axe have for us? How about Jeff Dahmer's drill or butcher knife? I'm getting two messages here that I don't think support each other.
1. They are just objects, so David Berkowitz's Charter Arms .44 is just a Charter Arms .44 no different from any other.
2. They are history and have big, important lessons to teach us, so we must preserve them lest history be forgot.
It can't be both ways.
1. They are just objects, so David Berkowitz's Charter Arms .44 is just a Charter Arms .44 no different from any other.
2. They are history and have big, important lessons to teach us, so we must preserve them lest history be forgot.
It can't be both ways.
berrieberrie
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To each his own but indeed not rational at all, since Italy made up 1/3 of the main Axis powers, no matter how you look at it. Care to share what makes you feel this way ?
Wolfebyte
Member
Only if ammo is no longer made for it..
Sorry, there were a few hours between beginning my response and hitting post before going to bed. The point I wanted to make was that we are responsible for whatever sentiments remain attached to a firearm. It's up to us to decide if they should be revered or reviled, and whether that value has diminished over time through use or change of hands. The negative associations can end with you, so to speak, if you choose not to retell the story. After they are passed on they fall into the rest of histories unknown for future generations to question.
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