Is This Open Carry? Yes Or No

Is It Open Carry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 46 70.8%
  • No

    Votes: 19 29.2%

  • Total voters
    65
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salvador31c

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
189
Location
Phoenix,AZ
Quick Question in verifying the legality of this. I'm Almost positive thats this is open carry and is legal in Arizona but just wanted to make sure.
No person shall carry a firearm “concealed on his person.” This does not apply to a person in his dwelling, business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person. A handgun carried in a belt holster which is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage is not considered carrying concealed.
http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/State/State.aspx?st=az


I Normaly open carry my GLOCK 30 but wanted to try somthing else and i dont like the look of the belt holsters for snub Revolvers and this is less noticable then my G30 on the Hip

The Holster Is a IWB for my G30 but i like the way it sits the the revolver
 

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Wait, you're using an opinion poll on an internet message board to determine the legality of something? :uhoh:

Why don't you just contact the AZ CCW folks and ask them?

For inquiries about the Concealed Weapon Permit Program, or to comment about the Concealed Weapon Web Site, e-mail us:
[email protected]

Supervisor: Administrative Supervisor Rene Wilson
Concealed Weapon Permit Unit
P.O. Box 6488 Phoenix, Arizona 85005Metro Phoenix: (602) 256-6280
Outside Metro Phoenix (In Arizona): (800) 256-6280
Fax: (602) 223-2928
 
Why don't you just contact the AZ CCW folks and ask them?

oh fine then :scrutiny:
I Sent AZDPS A E-mail Describing how the holster and revolver stick out if I dont get an e-mail in about a week i'll call them.
 
I voted 'concealed' since to me open carry dictates that the gun be largely exposed ie, holster and gun not covered up. The wording of your quote indicates to me that the AZ legislature didn't want to deal with an article of clothing partialy covering a gun for a short time.

(The countymounty saying, "Well the wind blew his shirt over the gun for .05 second. I timed it with my lazer/radar/soundar XLWhizzBang 5000 that we bought with Wo(some)D seizure money.")

You are using a holster designed for concealment in a pocket. On the other hand if it were the same holster hung from the outside of the pocket, I think it would be 'open'.
 
I called AZ once, to ask about open carry. The nice woman told me that if the butt of the weapon is visible, you are open carrying. Of course, I would suggest you call for yourself.
 
Open carry in AZ is supposed to be pretty straightforward. Unfortunately, some court cases make it less so.

One fellow was carrying openly while talking to a police officer, but kept turning so that the sidearm was not visible to the police officer. The courts ruled that he was carrying concealed.

There are other cases muddying the waters.

You want the latest version of Alan Korwin's AZGOG.
 
One fellow was carrying openly while talking to a police officer, but kept turning so that the sidearm was not visible to the police officer. The courts ruled that he was carrying concealed.
Prolly something else in this story.

If the piece was "Concealed" then how did the cop know to arrest him?

Felt him up? I mean a Terry frisk?

Maybe the cop thought it was concealed before he thought it was not before he thought it was concealed again.

I often ask myself........If I walk up to a cop and say, "I have a concealed weapon in my pocket." Isn't that just as good as open carrying?

I shoulda made my comment about the holster in question.

I read the law to say that it "The Piece" is ok if it's in a "belt holster". The law does not say that the holster has to be on the belt. The clip on the holster indicates to me that it is, in fact a belt holster.
 
I would say it is OC but YMMV. To Kentak, the law says that a belt holster is not concealed, it doesn't mean that it is the only way to open carry.
 
For Those that say no what would be more apporiate how much of the holster should be shown? the way i have it the holster sticks out about atleast 1 1/2 inches and the butt about 4inches what would be more on the safe side?
 
Case law might say

I've heard 3 inches and 1/2 inch must show but I don't know where those numbers come from. I would guess somewhere there is a case law ruling on the matter. OTOH maybe the standard is like here in Virginia where the weapon must be recognizable from 3 directions.
 
Arizona law is not the same as any other state's law. And the written law has been modified by case law, so you can't trust the words you read in the Arizona Revised Statues.

I wish I knew the answer, but it really is, "It's complicated," and "It depends upon which policeman sees you and which judge you stand before," and "You're unlikely to have trouble," and, "But if you do, it'll be a mess."

My opinion? Don't take the chance.

Oh, and have you ordered AZGOG yet?
 
If it can be seen, it isn't concealed.

There is either concealed carry or there is open carry. They are opposites.


con·ceal
tr.v. con·cealed, con·ceal·ing, con·ceals
To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide.
 
:banghead: The dictionary does not apply, and the laws in your state do not apply. The question is about Arizona law.

Here's a quote from Alan's list of changes to Arizona gun law (when you buy AZGOG, you can check his web site to see what changes to AZ gun law have happened since you got the book). From CHANGES TO AGOG 19 THAT APPEAR IN AGOG 20

The rules for open carry were quite simple in Arizona, when the laws meant what they said (described below) until the late 1990s. Then, several activist judges literally rewrote our laws from the bench, creating "law" that was never passed by the legislature and creating significant risks for the average armed resident.

The new "test" for whether open carry is legal -- not written in any law -- now seems to be, if your gun is readily accessible for immediate use, the means of conveyance must reasonably place others on notice you're armed. The phrases "readily accessible for immediate use," "conveyance" and "reasonably place others on notice" are undefined inventions of the court; "conveyance" seems to imply holster, gun case or other device for carrying a firearm.

The enacted statute applies to adults who are not prohibited from firearm possession. You may carry firearms, loaded or unloaded, throughout Arizona, subject to the following restrictions. If you carry a gun on yourself and don't have a concealed-weapon permit, the statute says it must be at least partially visible or in a belt holster that's at least partially visible. See §13-3102 for the letter of the law. The statute says you may also carry a gun in a case designed for carrying weapons or a scabbard, and the case or scabbard must be at least partially visible, or else carried in luggage.

The simple, long-standing partially visible standard has now been reinterpreted by some courts to practically require blatant display, and they have invented other non-statutory conditions that place honest people bearing arms in jeopardy. Specifically, some judges may seek to increase your risk -- not written in the law -- if you're on foot and your gun is readily accessible for immediate use (which a gun in a holster obviously is). Under statute, "immediately accessible" conditions only apply to vehicles, described below.

In addition, the law does not define what a holster or weapon case is or looks like (common sense used to apply), but in 1995 an appellate court set a precedent by saying a fanny-pack holster does not qualify -- it doesn't look enough like a weapon case -- without saying how much is enough. This created enormous risk for decent residents everywhere, and the court didn't seem to mind. If you're carrying openly but someone can't immediately tell, you may be held in violation. Yes, that's right, it's confusing.

Authorities and lower courts have been inconsistent in dealing with people who carry openly -- from completely ignoring a person to court convictions -- creating a substantial degree of risk, and who wants to be the next test case. The risk is pretty much eliminated, however, if you have a concealed-weapon permit, or if you carry openly in a manner so that people can't mistake that you're armed.

There is a certain pride that Arizona is an open carry state -- it reflects our pioneer sense of freedom. Indeed, many states have made it much harder to move a gun from point A to point B than it is here, where people are (or certainly used to be) free to take their firearms around pretty much as they see fit.
 
The wording in the ARS is a bit different than your OP.

...carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible (cut and pasted from the A.R.S. website)


I would say the gun has to be in a "BELT" holster where the holster is at least partially visible. Even if the gun is totally obstructed from veiw the holster itself has to be at least partially visible and on the belt.
 
I hope you don't mind if I pound this into the ground. Well, even if you do, here I go. Again, this is Arizona case law concerning Arizona written law. Neither the dictionary nor the customs and statutes of any other state will shed light on this matter.

Michael Kielsky discusses an analysis by Michael P. Anthony (emphasis mine):

There you have it. In summary, according to Mr. Anthony's analysis, and despite contrary plain language in the statutes, you may be arrested and convicted of a Class 1 misdemeanor carrying a concealed weapon in the following instances:

* traveling in an automobile with a weapon stored in the glove box or console (your knowledge of the weapon, or how it may be stored, is mostly irrelevant)

* traveling in an automobile with a CCW holder who has a weapon on his person or in his vehicle (your knowledge is irrelevant)

* carrying a weapon in a holster, case, or scabbard, if the judge believes the holster, case, or scabbard hides the weapon from the 'ordinary observation'; carry your new Glock home in it's factory original "tupperware" container, you're carrying concealed

* carrying a weapon in luggage, since almost by definition, "luggage" would hide it from the 'ordinary observation' of another person

and

According to Mr. Anthony's analysis, these cases have essentially rewritten A.R.S. § 13-3102 F from it's present:

F. Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

to this supposed, judicially crafted version (underscores to show changes):

F. Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons readily apparent to ordinary observation and carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons readily apparent to ordinary observation from any place within or without the means of transportation and carried in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

I strongly disagree with such an extremely expansive reading of these cases. But, DPS liked Mr. Anthony's analysis, and has now made it policy.
 
There is either concealed carry or there is open carry. They are opposites.

And this is why you don't want to rely on legal advice from the internet.

As with most legal findings, the state of Arizona doesn't necessarily agree with the common word definations.

Carrying “concealed” means carrying a weapon on your person in such a manner that “it is hidden from the `ordinary observation’ or the `ordinary sight’ of another person.”

...

A.R.S. § 13-3102.F allows a person to carry a firearm without a CCW permit "in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage." Notwithstanding the wording of this statute, the Arizona Court of Appeals has ruled that guns may not be carried in devices that conceal the gun from “ordinary” view,
e.g., in "fanny packs," without a CCW permit, (1) if the gun is readily accessible and (2) if the container does not reasonably place others on notice that the person is armed.


....

"We believe that the legislature intended to prohibit a person from carrying a concealed weapon [without a permit] on his or her person in a manner readily accessible for immediate use unless the conveyance utilized to carry the weapon reasonably would place others on notice that such person is armed."

Source: http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/CcwclassDPS.12-0.pdf

Now, the question becomes whether your pocket carry would be obvious to "ordinary observation." You said that "this is less noticable then my G30 on the Hip". If the police/judge decide that it is less noticable enough that another person might not realize that are you are armed, you could be in for a fight.

As I recommended, see what the AZ DPS has to say.
 
Well Thanks for all the comments and I've read the AZ State Constitution and the Revised Statues many times and i belive that it is open carry but I really dont want the trouble if an Officer does not agree with me so untill I Get my CCW Pemit i'll just Open Carry with a Holster on The Belt as to avoid any trouble till then but thanks for the input

Better Safe Then Sorry Right
 
Got This E-mail From The DPS CCW Staff

From : <[email protected]>
Sent : Tuesday, October 10, 2006
To : "salvador rangel" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: CCW

| | | Inbox



Salvador,

Based on what you are telling me it sounds like you may need a concealed weapon permit.

CWPU Staff



Hello, I Have a question reguarding Open Carry in Phoenix, AZ if you can not
answer this question can you send me a link of someone who can. I Have a
Inside The Pants belt Holster for a Revolver That I Would Like To Carry
Inside my front Pocket The holster sticks out no less then 1 1/2inches (more in
other places) and the butt of the revolver sticks out almost totally nearly
4 inches is this Considerd Open Carry or would i need a CCW Permit
 
I got my CCW for the same reason (to make moot the question of what is "concealed"). And, it does let you carry, openly or concealed, in exactly one place prohibited to those without CCW: Posted public parks.

When you take your class, sit in the back. Trust me on this one.
 
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