Is W231 supposed to be THIS dirty??

[ArchAngelCD]

W231 is one of the powders I use most. I could load without it but I would not like it at all!

I can load anything ever shot with W231(HP-38), W540(HS-6) and W296(H110)...

 

[Blue68f100]

231 is a powder that burns clean at high pressures, ~ twice what the 45acp is. If you want a powder that burn ultra clean in the 45acp look no further than WST. This being a shotgun powder it works extremely well in the low pressure round of the 45acp if you not looking for max velocity. It burns clean with as little as 4.0 gr behind a 185gr LSWC. Note, this is a common BE power where most load at 4.1-4.2 gr. 100 rounds at this load is cleaner than 231/Unique/BE an others after 10 rounds.

 

[Potatohead]

W-231 just works so well for so many things, it is a long time favorite of reloaders.

Yea, I've noticed that a little

Makes a lot of sense though, especially when you mention that their weren't as many powders back in the day. I'd imagine if a pistol loader had a jug or two of w231 in his powder cabinet back then, he was in about as good as shape as he could be in.

 

[Potatohead]

This coming from a Tuber buried in the DIRT!

LOL, I should've picked "Tuberhead" as my name.

As a reloader of some 8 months, with no mentor except THR, I can testify to that!

+ uno

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm at a loss as to why so many posts are jumping on the band wagon saying W231 burns dirty unless it's loaded hot. One of the reasons I like w231 so much is it can be downloaded without it being dirty. We are not talking about Unique here, we are discussing W231.

 

[ljnowell]

I'm at a loss as to why so many posts are jumping on the band wagon saying W231 burns dirty unless it's loaded hot. One of the reasons I like w231 so much is it can be downloaded without it being dirty. We are not talking about Unique here, we are discussing W231.

I don't think 231 burns incredibly dirty but there are options that range from a little to a lot better. In 38 special bullseye loads for example similar loads of 231 and AA#2 were miles apart.

After a 400-500 rd session with AA#2 my gun would have some carbon around the front edge of the cylinder and the muzzle that would wipe right off and I would have a slight amount on my hand.

The same kind of session with 231 and my cylinder would look parkerized and my hand(s) would be filthy. Not just noticeable but way, way worse.

If I were to load close to max with 231 it would clean up but not reach the level of AA#2.

 

[Rule3]

I'm at a loss as to why so many posts are jumping on the band wagon saying W231 burns dirty unless it's loaded hot. One of the reasons I like w231 so much is it can be downloaded without it being dirty. We are not talking about Unique here, we are discussing W231.

I am equally at a loss as to why the issue of "dirty" powder ever comes up? Anything that burns is going to leave some residue. It's not like burning propane or hydrogen.

Powder burns,leaves carbon, clean your gun,shoot some more, clean repeat over and over. If it takes 1 more patch so what?

I don't hear complaints about dirty Idaho potatoes. I still scrub them before baking.

 

[oldreloader]

I'm at a loss as to why so many posts are jumping on the band wagon saying W231 burns dirty unless it's loaded hot. One of the reasons I like w231 so much is it can be downloaded without it being dirty. We are not talking about Unique here, we are discussing W231.

I agree.

 

[ljnowell]

I am equally at a loss as to why the issue of "dirty" powder ever comes up? Anything that burns is going to leave some residue. It's not like burning propane or hydrogen.



Powder burns,leaves carbon, clean your gun,shoot some more, clean repeat over and over. If it takes 1 more patch so what?



I don't hear complaints about dirty Idaho potatoes. I still scrub them before baking.

Some of us do not clean a firearm after every outing. My competition guns go some time between cleanings. After cleaning my groups open up until I foul it again. I do not want to have to clean it after every practice session just to have to go back out after cleaning and fire 50 more rounds.

With the exception if wiping down the external parts of my comp guns the bore and cylinders are only cleaned every 2-3k rounds.

 

[Twiki357]

Originally Posted by Walkalong
It wasn't so long ago that we didn't have as many choices as we have now. We are really lucky to have so many powders available to us these days. It's a good thing.

It would be a good thing if I could ever find any powder. I could live with dirty.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, availability lately has been quite frustrating for reloaders.

 

[Potatohead]

I am equally at a loss as to why the issue of "dirty" powder ever comes up? Anything that burns is going to leave some residue

It comes up because some seem to be "dirtier" than others.

I don't hear complaints about dirty Idaho potatoes

Now you're saying Im a dirty "tuber"???

 

[Rule3]

I must have received unknown number of 1lb jars and several 8 pounders of the new and improved cleaner version of powder.

Probably will find posts that say W 231 is cleaner than HP 38 or something similar

Of course Unique and Bullseye are so clean you never have to clean a gun.

Now Tater we are just messing with you. It was a sad day when Mr Potato Head went to a plastic body and we no longer used real spuds.

I have to find some other nits to pick.

 

[Detritus]

the discussion of "Dirty" at least in my case comes in at least partly because I use these same loads as my match ammo when I go to the local USPSA match. And

• If it can be avoided I'd rather not be so covered in powder residue at the end of a 200rd match that i feel i need a shower before I eat lunch. (a point to which my current w231 batch is coming close to)
• on the subject of fouling in the gun.. again match related. I do not want to unexpectedly find out in the middle of a match, that point at which the fouling WILL cause a malfunction

anyway, it looks like I have the answer: Hodgdon published load data with a powder-puff max-load. and the consensus is to load closer to max OAL and step-up the charge a bit to get better burn efficiency.

 

[Rule3]

It's really very simple. This issue has been around for some time and beat to death. Simply don't use the product and use some clean burn powder.

"Detritus" and dirty powder? I sense a theme going on here.

 

[Detritus]

"Detritus" and dirty powder? I sense a theme going on here.

 

[Toprudder]

I'm no expert, but....

One thing about loading at the low end of the scale, that I have noticed especially in .45acp, is that there may not be enough pressure to expand the casings enough to form a gas seal. Look at the casings after you shoot to see if there is soot all down the side of the casings. That is when I especially notice the "black mold" on my arms after shooting. All that gas blowing past the casing will get all down inside the action of the gun as well, making everything nasty.

I think once there is enough pressure to form a gas seal, even if the powder doesn't burn cleanly, at least most of it should blow out of the front.

 

[ljnowell]

I'm no expert, but....



One thing about loading at the low end of the scale, that I have noticed especially in .45acp, is that there may not be enough pressure to expand the casings enough to form a gas seal. Look at the casings after you shoot to see if there is soot all down the side of the casings. That is when I especially notice the "black mold" on my arms after shooting. All that gas blowing past the casing will get all down inside the action of the gun as well, making everything nasty.



I think once there is enough pressure to form a gas seal, even if the powder doesn't burn cleanly, at least most of it should blow out of the front.

Unless you are like me and shoot a revolver primarily. It's what I compete with and shoot 500+ rds a week through. A lot if crud blows out that cylinder gap when it's burning dirty.

 

[Toprudder]

Yeah, I do shoot mainly semi-autos.

 

[pseudonymity]

I find HP38/W231 kind of sooty at lower pressures, but surprisingly it seems to shoot consistently even at lower pressures. Cast lead rounds in 9mm and target loads in 38spl may leave my hands a bit darkened, but I do not remember any malfunctions due to the soot.

When I ran low on HP38, I bought what I could and tried to make some progress with HS6 in 38spl - that was the definition of dirty IMO. I would literally take a toothbrush to the range to scrub the cylinder after every reload to make sure it did not bind on the unburnt powder.

 

[Detritus]

I think once there is enough pressure to form a gas seal, even if the powder doesn't burn cleanly, at least most of it should blow out of the front.

Well, the Gun(s) in question (both mine and my wife's) are 5" barreled 1911s. And while everything might be leaving by the front, the cloud of byproducts of inefficient combustion is certainly billowing at least as far back as my elbows if not my chest. Just because it leave the barrel straight-ahead does not mean it remains going that direction.

and If a powder is not burning efficiently/ not enough pressure is created, some of the powder can still be burning, at an even LESS efficient rate, during extraction/ejection. which can result in the interior of an auto winding in a very sooty condition

 

[Toprudder]

and If a powder is not burning efficiently/ not enough pressure is created, some of the powder can still be burning, at an even LESS efficient rate, during extraction/ejection. which can result in the interior of an auto winding in a very sooty condition

I didn't say it would ALL blow out the front. ;-)

What I was trying to say was that if you don't have enough pressure to form a gas seal, everything WILL get nasty, and less nasty if there is a gas seal. Without a gas seal, you will have combustion by products blowing out the ejection port long before the casing is ejected. But you are right, there is still pressure in the barrel that will blow back during ejection.

Did you notice if the spent casings were especially black on the outside?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have a very strong feeling a lot of the complaints of W231 being dirty in reality is the soot created by the bullet lube and not the powder at all.

 

[ljnowell]

I have a very strong feeling a lot of the complaints of W231 being dirty in reality is the soot created by the bullet lube and not the powder at all.

Not from me. I used the same bullets in my AA#2 and Bullseye loads that were in the 231 loads. The same lube didn't make a mess in those.

It's a great powder but ime loadings under 20k just aren't as clean burning as some other powders.

 

[Detritus]

Did you notice if the spent casings were especially black on the outside?

Not really, following pic is of three cases from the last batch fired before I started the thread. granted some of the soot/fouling may have rubbed of in handling etc.

But many of my past loads using 700X looked like this too, and as stated I didn't get near as much fouling inside the pistol or on me with those loads