J-frame Life Expectancy?

[TheProf]

Just read about the LCR...that some reported problems after "excessive" rounds fired...

The general response was that such a gun was designed to be "carried often and shot sparingly"...

So...here's my question:

For the aluminum frame SW638.... and for the SW360 (titanium? not sure the exact alloy)...how many rounds can one fire before wearing it out?

The reason I ask is that I like to shoot often my carry guns. (It only makes sense...right?) (I like to shoot 1,000 rounds minimum per year per gun that I carry.)

 

[1911Tuner]

Depends a lot on the ammunition used and the level of recoil that it generates. Recoil impulse is the most stressful factor, as it places the frame in tensile stress...stretch...and that can be ruinous to an aluminum alloy frame in fairly quick time if the stresses are high.

To minimize those stresses...use target wadcutter or the handloaded equivalent for the bulk of the shooting, reserving the hotter carry stuff for occasional refamiliarization.

Lead bullets are less stressful on the frame in any event due to the lower coefficient of friction and the forward drag forces on the barrel. Be aware that lead bullets can generated higher pressures for a given powder charge than a jacketed bullet of the same weight/mass. It's because the lead bullet will obturate and seal the bore from blow-by gasses earlier than the jacketed bullet, resulting in less gas pressure escape. At reduced pressure levels, it's not an issue. At +P levels...it starts to become one.

When considering pressure and recoil impulse levels, keep in mind that more pressure means more force...and that force forward equals force backward. The harder you drive the bullet, the harder the force drives the gun backward.

Slower powders are a bit less stressful on the frame for a given peak pressure level. An analogy would be a 200 ft-pound push as opposed to a 200 ft-pound punch. The same force is applied, but it's applied in a different way.

Lighter bullets have less bearing surface than heavy ones...resulting in reduced frictional forces generated on the barrel.

All kinds of ways to mitigate stress on the gun and extend its service life if you look for'em and consider the physics and dynamics of firing a gun.

Never forget that the more the gun punishes you, the more the gun itself is being punished. Just no gettin' around that.

 

[w_houle]

I would say that...In my mind the mantra of carried a lot and shot little applies to around here, but not necessarily to everyone. I wouldn't shoot IPSC or IDPA with it, but would think that a box or two per weekend wouldn't kill it.
158gr LRN non +p shouldn't exasperate the issues being mentioned.
Just my 2¢

 

[Katana8869]

The general response was that such a gun was designed to be "carried often and shot sparingly"...

Bull.... I have in excess of 1000 rounds through every snubby I own including my J-frames and LCR. Admittedly most of the ammunition fired has been standard pressure factory ammo or reloads. However, there is no reason not to shoot any of these guns regularly and often. As long as you aren't abusing the gun with a steady diet of hot, punishing ammo, it with outlast you.

1911tuner's post is spot on in his description of how to mitigate wear on a revolver (or any other kind of gun for that matter). There is no reason to beat a gun to death while practicing for accuracy and proficiency.

My only exception to the above would be my SP-101. It seems to like it when I abuse it lol

 

[1911Tuner]

158gr LRN non +p shouldn't exasperate the issues being mentioned.

Surely not as destructive as +P, but still harder on the diminutive little guns than target wadcutter ammunition.

I'll relate a little history before jumpin' off this one.

Back in the day, the .38 Speical round was pretty anemic in its original loading of a 158 grain RN lead bullet loaded to an advertised 755 fps, and the .38-44 cartridge was born.
Essentially, a hot-rodded .38 Special that was developed with large-framed revolvers in mind. A ".38 on a .44 Frame." This was before the lettered designations...so there was no "N" frame or "K" frame. The ammunition was headstamped ".38-44" to prevent anyone firing it in a standard .38 Special revolver.

The problem was that nobody listened to the warnings, and fired the .38-44 Heavy Duty ammunition in what was to become the Model 10...which is a K-frame...and guns were shot loose While-U-Wait. Those who realized that something was wrong stopped using it, or sent it back for repair. Those who didn't notice or heed the caveats blew up guns.

So, the .357 Magnum was introduced, with its longer case that prevented chambering in .38 Special revolvers. The gun was also bult on the large .44 frame...and later became known as the "N" frame...and things were good.

Enter Bill Jordan and his request for a .357 Magnum chambering in a K-frame revolver...and we had the Model 19. Jordan understood the issue at hand, and he cautioned: ".38s for practice and .357s for business." And nobody listened.

The Model 19 was a K-frame...essentially no more than a Victory Model with a heavy barrel and better heat treating...which led folks to believe that a steady diet of full-power .357 ammunition was okay. This was in the day that .357 Magnum was a 158-grain LSWC loaded to an advertised 1550 fps from an 8.375 inch barrel...and it would hit more than 1450 in a 6-inch tube. Really raucous stuff.

History repeated itself. The Model 19s began to loosen up in short order, and Smith & Wesson strongly advised new owners to use .38 Special ammunition for the bulk of the shooting done with their fine little revolvers. All to very little avail, it seems...and my guess is that the ammunition manufacturers were asked to tone it down a bit...which is why we have the neutered 158-grain .357 cartridge today that is rated at 1135 fps, and actually clocks about 1100 on average. It's not the same cartridge as it was in its original guise.

Enter the screamer 125-grain JHP, and Smith threw in the towel, countering with their answer in the form of the L-frame revolver. Colt had already covered it with their Python, but the Python's lockwork went out of time more readily than the Smith and when they did, they spit lead and gasses out the forcing cones like a Cobra.

Then, the ammo makers struck again with their .38 +P offerings, thanks to Lee Jurras and Super-Vel...and we start all over again in the race to see how fast we can wreck our revolvers...except this time, it's the J-frames that are quite literally under the hammer. So, gentlemen...Shoot'em if ya got'em. Time will tell the rest of the story.

 

[w_houle]

Then people say that .38 was neutered and that +p is what .38 is suppose to be, then pint the discrepancy between CIP and SAAMI as a reference.
Can't say I've seen any of the major stores offer SWC, so figured that LRN round was the best for what's commonly available... for those who don't reload.

 

[1911Tuner]

Then people say that .38 was neutered and that +p is what .38 is suppose to be,

Internet myth and fallacy. The original smokeless .38 Special loading was 158 LRN at a blazing 755 fps. Interestingly...the original smokeless .44 Special loading was 246 RNL at 755 fps as well. Barrel lengths weren't mentioned in those days, so it's anybody's guess as to what equipment they used to arrive at those numbers...but probably an unvented pressure barrel. Both cartridges in their original guise were pretty tame. I remember shooting some old .44 Special ammo in a 4-inch Model 29. Report and recoil weren't at all unlike .38 target wadcutters fired in a Model 10.

 

[Zeke/PA]

At present I'm shooting a 158 SWC over 2.5 grains of Bullseye in my 638 averaging MAYBE 50 rounds/ week.
My daily carry load is a 135gr. Speer Gold Dot, +P of course.
Guess I'm O.K.

 

[1911Tuner]

Zeke...Yup. With that, the gun will probably outlast you.

 

[S&Wfan]

So...here's my question:

For the aluminum frame SW638.... and for the SW360 (titanium? not sure the exact alloy)...how many rounds can one fire before wearing it out?

The reason I ask is that I like to shoot often my carry guns. (It only makes sense...right?) (I like to shoot 1,000 rounds minimum per year per gun that I carry.)

To the original poster, quite important:

Do you currently reload your own ammuniton?

My answer hinges on that question.

Thanks!

 

[w_houle]

Do you currently reload your own ammuniton?

How many licks does it take... to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
How you reload: That's anything between mouse pharts and verging on catastrophe.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ed Harris wrote of wearing out two or three M60s (before magnumization of J frames) with steady use of standard loads. Maybe he just shoots more than we do.

 

[TheProf]

No.. I do not reload.

I shoot about 150 rounds (standard .38) and 50 (+P) per month in my 638.
I shoot about 150 rounds (standard .38), 50 (+P), and 50 (.357 mag) per month in my SW 360.

This is an estimate and I like to maintain a minimum of 1000 rounds total per gun per year.

 

[Landric]

The simple fact is that any gun will eventually wear out from shooting ammunition in it that is in fact intended for it. Shooting heavier loaded ammunition in more lightly built guns will speed up the process, but the process is always in action. All mechanical devices eventually wear out. Most guns will outlast the owners, but that generally due to lack of shooting, not the inability of the gun to wear out.

Back before the internet I read an article in one of the gun rags where the author attempted to wear out two S&W Airweights (Bodyguards IIRC) with 158 grain LSWCHP (+P) FBI loads. At the time no Airweight was rated by S&W for +P. Again, IIRC, both guns made it to somewhere around 5000 rounds before they started to show signs of wearing out. 5000 rounds really isn't a bad service life for a small, lightweight revolver. That is about what I would expect from one at any rate, if it lasts longer, excellent.

My standard BUG is a Airweight DAO 37-2. S&W doesn't make them like that anymore, and its probably the gun I have that is most likely to wear out the soonest. Therefore, with that in mind, I have two more NIB hidden away for when the one I'm carrying now wears out. That should last me at least the rest of my career.

 

[M&PVolk]

Perhaps a better question is, does Smith & Wesson still repair these guns under their lifetime warranty when they are "shot out"?

 

[Landric]

My understanding is that at least over the last several years S&W is replacing shot out guns with new ones, not trying to repair the worn out ones. Of course, that means if one sends them a 638 with forged parts and no IL one gets back a new 638 with MIM parts and an IL.

 

[M&PVolk]

Interesting. Even still, replacing a gun that has been worn out under normal use is still amazingly good customer service and one of the many reasons I love S&W.

 

[w_houle]

I think the point being that you send in you Cadillac to be repaired and you get back a re-badged Chevy Celebrity with that being the case, it would be better to have a gunsmith try to fix the problem

 

[S&Wfan]

No.. I do not reload.

I shoot about 150 rounds (standard .38) and 50 (+P) per month in my 638.
I shoot about 150 rounds (standard .38), 50 (+P), and 50 (.357 mag) per month in my SW 360.

This is an estimate and I like to maintain a minimum of 1000 rounds total per gun per year.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply!

First, I'd recommend that you purchase a reloading machine. It wouldn't have to be expensive . . . something like a Lee Turret would do fine.

Reloading is very easy to learn and very satisfying too. Five benefits . . .

1. STUNNING differences in costs of ammunition! And with the money you save . . .

2. You can shoot a whole lot more and

3. Have enough money to purchase a new handgun too in no time!

4. You can now custom load your practice rounds to produce less wear and tear on you and your firearms . . . which means . . .

5. Your guns will last longer.


All active shooters eventually put the pencil to the costs, and discover the huge savings financially of doing our own.

Basically, you save your old brass (which can be reloaded scores of times more) and all you have to buy is primers, powder and bullets!

- I recommend Federal primers in revolvers, though other brands work of course. Most of us who shoot double action matches prefer Federal, especially on tricked out revolvers with lighter trigger pulls

- For powder? Unique is low cost, easy to use, and perfect for most of your handgun needs. It is a wise powder to start with, and many never go further. Very accurate too.

- I use cast lead bullets that wear revolvers out much, much slower. I use lead in my semi-autos too. Heck . . . I even use hot-loaded hard cast, flat nose 300gn. bullets for deer hunting in my S&W Model 29-5 in .44 Magnum.


Heck, some folks go further and get a bullet making rig . . . and melt their own bullets in special bullet moulds that come for all the handgun calibers. Lead from old wheel weights that tire companies and junkyards get makes great bullets . . . and some folks can get 'em free!

Frankly, the cost of the gun is pretty small . . . compared to how many rounds of ammo will be put through it during its long lifetime by a very active shooting enthusiast. So, if the gun eventually wears out . . . just get it tuned up or replace it with another. It is just a tool . . . in the hands of an enthusiast . . . and just a small part of your overall costs!

Hope this helps.

 

[M&PVolk]

w_houle wrote:

I think the point being that you send in you Cadillac to be repaired and you get back a re-badged Chevy Celebrity with that being the case, it would be better to have a gunsmith try to fix the problem

Your analogy is heavily flawed. You are sending in a Cadillac with 300,000 miles on that no longer runs, is rusted apart with nary a usable part on it, and even though you have fully gotten your money's worth, the company turns around and gives you a new model for free. You may not like the newer plastics and body style changes, but you still got a new car for free. I'd call that an amazing deal myself.

I guess some people can never be pleased....simply amazing.

 

[w_houle]

M&PVolk: Oh, I agree with you. I was just stating some of the sentiment observed on the board,the cognitive dissonance around here some times is frightening... I guess I didn't phrase it correctly

 

[Onmilo]

I would venture a guess of a minimum of 5000 rounds of standard non +P service loads.

If it was fed a diet of nothing but target level wadcutter loads you could double that figure.

If it was fed nothing but +P loads you could cut the number of rounds in half before a major breakage.

Since most shooters vary the types of rounds they shoot through the gun, I think a reasonable service life before major breakage would be around 7500 rounds.

I should add aluminum frame guns will not last as long as steel frame guns and I haven't seen a Scandium/Titanium gun that has been fired all that much yet.

 

[Landric]

Don't get me wrong, I think S&W is great. I don't much like the trend recently toward internal locks, two part barrels, and MIM parts, but some of that is starting to turn around. I think the MIM parts are here to stay, but S&W is now offering some J-frames without ILs, and the two part barrels seems to be fading away, all be it slowly.

I doubt guns like my 37-2 will be available again, except perhaps as contract overruns like those available in the last 5 years, but that doesn't mean that S&W couldn't replace my 37-2 with a J-frame I would be happy with. One of the no IL 642, 442, 640, or 632 revolvers would be fine with me. However, if my option is only for a new IL/MIM revolver, I'll gladly accept it and then trade it on some other gun (probably a S&W or Ruger revolver) and break out one of my NIB 37-2s. One can't expect an out of production gun to be replaced with the exact same model (especially for free), but if one wants the exact same model, then one should have some in reserve.

 

[Jim K]

I have not examined any high use lightweight J frames, but I have known steel J frames that went well over 10,000 rounds (200 boxes) of mostly light loads with no discernable effect (I have one).

I would certainly expect the alloy frames to get at least that with light/moderate loads, but I have no idea how long they will last if given a steady diet of hot loads. That is not too common, simply because the gun can probably stand up to hot loads better than the shooter can.

Jim

 

[Landric]

I'd love to try and wear out one of the new +P rated J-frames and see how many rounds it takes. I can't afford to buy a gun just to test that way right now (but I will consider it after my wife goes back to work). If I can find a deal on a new .38 Special +P J then, I might just see if I can wear it out. After all, S&W will more than likely replace it if I do.