JSP for Self Defense bullets?

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TargetTerror

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I've seen many debates on FMJ v HP for CCW, and each bullet type has its pros and cons. But I almost never see anyone mention any other bullet types. It seems to me that something like a JSP would offer the benefts of both a FMJ and HP bullet without any major drawbacks. It should expand somewhat (right? or am I totally off base here?), but still offer enough penetration to reliably hit the vitals.

I was particularly impressed by this wound channel:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/357 Magnum.jpg

Also, they lack the stigma of the "killer hollowpoint" bullet. I've read about enough self defense prosecutions where holllowpoints were at least a factor that I'm inclined not to use them.
 
Every type of ammo has potential to be cast in a negative light in a court of law by the opposition. So does your brand of gun, model, your training, your lack of training, attitude, etc.

Your best consideration is to pick the best performing ammo that works reliably in your gun. Choosing ammo for self defense with poorer performance because it might be less of a hassle in a future court case that may never occur just doesn't make very good sense if your goal is to preserve your own life or the lives of loved ones.

If a given JSP ammo is that ammo, then that is what you should use, but don't pick it just because you think something better has a stigma attached to it.
 
What I have seen is that JSP bullets do not expand as well, but they do penetrate deeper than JHP bullets. So if you use a bigger caliber such as .44 special or another large bullet, it shouldn't matter so much whether it is JHP or JSP.
 
Soft points require much higher velocity to expand. So for a fast caliber like the .357 magnum, 7.62x25, or even 5.7x28mm, I don't see why they wouldn't work well for deep penetration.

For other calibers, stick with JHP.
 
holllowpoints are the best for defense, but soft poimts are usually better hunting bullets. It is simple deer have a tough hide compaired to humans and deer are taken at longer range than typical defense. Good defense bullets expand easy, while gunting bullets need to penetrate. In war the use is different than in personal defense. holllowpoints however, do work well on light game at low velocity
 
From my reading I say FMJ and JSP are the best defensive rounds. They penetrate more, cost less, won't land you in jail and won't get you sued by angry family members.
 
From my reading I say FMJ and JSP are the best defensive rounds. They penetrate more, cost less, won't land you in jail and won't get you sued by angry family members.

Given the number of cases where folks have sued, I can't recall the basis of the suit ever being for the type of round used in regard to JSP, HP, FMJ, RNLB, or frangible. The suits are usually for wrongful death or wrongful injury, regardless of the slug type.

As for landing you in jail, other than NJ, who has hollowpoints as illegal?
 
Given the number of cases where folks have sued, I can't recall the basis of the suit ever being for the type of round used in regard to JSP, HP, FMJ, RNLB, or frangible. The suits are usually for wrongful death or wrongful injury, regardless of the slug type.

There have been plenty of wronful death suits and criminal trials based on the ammo used. There have been many cases linked on THR and elsewhere. If you aren't seeing these cases it isn't my fault. Carry whatever you want, just don't come on here complaining when your being prosecuted or sued for using hollow points.

Just one case on here right now: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264701
 
I found this little tidbit on another forum regarding ammo used for SD.
While it is just an opinion and of course we all have them this poster did a
good job in rationalizing why you should think hard about routinely carrying
hand load ammo.
From Mitchel in CT:

I apologies for posting here is this is a Law Enforcement only part of the forum. I checked above and did not see a notation that people other than LE were not allowed to post, and if I am in violation of the rules, I apologies.

I currently work in the legal field, and graduated from law school although have not passed the bar yet, but I'd like to offer my opinion on this issue.
(Ok, please...put the shotgun down...you have to be sporting...just use the handgun and leave something for someone else to shoot at!!)

Tort liability will likely be determined from the totality of the circumstances and the subjective and objective reasonableness of the actions taken.

Translated into English, were your actions, taken as a whole, reasonable to you at the time they were taken, and is a court (the finder of fact, judge or jury) willing to accept your definition of reasonable?

You may feel that when a suspect you are trying to cuff elbows you in the face, knees you in the balls and then reaches into his waistband the proper response is "shoot him till he drops".

Someone unfamiliar with guns may not know that handguns are not good stoppers, people who have been shot can still be dangerous, ectra...and so your decision, to shoot the suspect who just assaulted you and made for his waistband (golly...no one carries a handgun IWB, do they?? Gag...) isn't obvious to them. Explaining it to the finder of fact at trial (or before that which might end the ordeal on motions alone) is how you get the tire of fact to accept your decision as reasonable.

So, are hand loads likely to be a cause for concern? I would recommend not doing it for several reasons, the first of which is that an issue which is never brought up...is an issue which is never brought up.

Yes, it is something that can be dealt with by a competent attorney, but why should it have to come up? When the facts are on your side, argue the facts, when the law is on your side, argue the law, and when you have nothing, pound on the table.

Even in a good shoot you will have enough to worry about. I'm sure you all know of times when a good shoot, civilian self defense or law enforcement, has turned into the saga of a "disadvantaged minority youth killed in a hail of gunfire by the police(or insert your description of a white male authority figure)...".

Why add anything to the mix that you do not need to?

The second reason I would avoid hand loads is your own safety. Are you really better than Black Hills or Federal when it comes to loading? Maybe you can load to spec, but sealing the bullets for carry?
(If you are...um...let me know...lets talk about a load for my .38...)

The third reason I would avoid hand loads for carry and duty is forensics. I won't pretend to know more than I do, and if I am wrong I welcome the correction, but during a shooting investigation wouldn't they check powder burn patterns to determine distance from the muzzle and things like that? Were are they going to get a baseline sample from?

If you have a shooting with a glock 22 loaded with 155 grain gold dot loaded by pro-load or black hills, they can get exact samples of what was used for tests to show the distance via powder residue. Can they do it from your hand loads? Will you have to "manufacture evidence" after the fact for testing? Wouldn't you love to see the questioning on how the lab came into posession of the rounds used for testing...

Q: Were did you obtain the lot of ammo used for testing?

A: From the defendant.

Q Was this lot of ammo manufactured for the test?

A: Yes.

Q: By who?

A: The defendant.

NO THANK YOU.

Is the problem insurmountable? I don't think so.

I would simply ask one question before doing it, thought: Will you get anything from an hand load that is so significant that it cannot be obtained by the use of factory ammo?

In closing, I have never heard of a case were liability arose ONLY on the use of handloaded ammo in what was an otherwise clean shoot, however, I simply see no reason to introduce the issue and questions into what will be a terrible situation already.
 
little case law on the books re: using handloads for self defense.

i don't feel any compelling reason to use handloads with all the quality commercial ammo available. and i don't want to be one of the first published cases where i live (fairly antigun).

as far as using fmj for defense - my understanding is that hollowpoints are more "humane" because you can use fewer of them vs. fmj.
 
The way I understand it, JSP are only good as a SD round in the .357. YMMV

Or maybe a 10mm, which is another high velocity pistol round, or the other mentioned varieties mentioned.

I'd suggest some practice on water jugs for a real world evaluation. Unless of course you can acquire ballistic gelatin. Coyotes might offer a good test bed also, but calling those wiley's in that close for a pistol shot has not been my luck of yet. I think overpenetration might be a problem on a coyote though, so shoot them longwise if you can.
 
Carry whatever you want, just don't come on here complaining when your being prosecuted or sued for using hollow points.

I have been an attorney since 1998, a prosecutor for much of that time, and have never heard of anything as crazy as being sued or prosecuted for using hollow points. While theoretically possible, the possibility is so tiny and remote as to not be worthy of a single case or a single legal analysis of which I can find or of which I am aware.

I cannot imagine trying to convince a jury that, although the defendant was legally authorized to use lethal force, that force could only be a FMJ and not a hollow point. I would be laughed out of court. I can, however, imagine arguing that the defendant was criminally negligent for firing a FMJ round capable of penetrating 10+ walls in an urban area. It's a more plausible argument, though one I would be loathe to make.

From my reading I say FMJ and JSP are the best defensive rounds. They penetrate more, cost less, won't land you in jail and won't get you sued by angry family members.

Yeah, whatever. They are just the round if you need to penetrate through three or four people and a few walls. I wouldn't consider FMJ in anything bigger than a .25/.32. If my weapon wouldn't feed HP's, I'd sell it to got a modern, quality firearm.
 
trial by implication

I could not imagine being prosecuted for using JHP bullets, or any other types of bullet construction either.

But wait.

Doesn't the post imply that using JHP ammo can be used by a prosecutor as circumstantial evidence of evil intent, in what would otherwise, be judged by a jury as legal self defense? It could be used to influence a jury's decision as to whether a shooting was self defense or criminal intent. Or another outcome could be this.

Here is what I mean. You shoot in self defense and the perpetrator dies from his wounds. You are aquitted by a jury who find the shooting meets the requirements of the law for self defense.

Now, the deceased's family files for wrongful death. You used the "killer" JHP ammunition; implying that you intentionally shot to kill. Not to wound nor "stop." You could have chosen ammo such as FMJ that would not have inflicted such devistating wounds, and thereby the perp's life would have been spared.

"Nemoaz," this perception of the legal process does seem to so many of us who are not directly involved in the justice system, as, what does transpire in our courtrooms all too often today.

Is this too, far fetched?

Thanks.

Jim
 
Some of the modern JHP do seem to under penetrate, even in 40 and 45 but there are other brands of controlled expansion JHP that have enough penetration. If I'm carrying to defend against animals I carry FMJ, human threats get JHP.

As insane as it seems the use of JHP has been used by prosecutors to sway the opinion of jury members in trials. The average person doesn't understand FMJ, JSP or JHP but they do know JHP expand and are designed to do more damage to the target and they look "mean."

The problem becomes when the defendant's attorney fails to properly explain why it is a good thing JHP was used.

If they prosecutor is motivated to convict you they will find all kinds of things to twist around.
 
I frequently see references to "more lethal" and "killer" hollow point bullets. This should be easy to defeat.

All of the statistics I am familiar with say that fewer deaths occur in shootings with hollow point bullets than do shootings with non-expanding lead or full metal jacket bullets.

No doubt part of this is due to the quality JHPs stopping people with fewer shots fired. Part of it is due to the fact that JHPs don't penetrate as deeply as non expanding bullets.

ALL bullets are potentially lethal. Anything capable of poking a hole in the human anatomy is capable of causing death. Jacketed hollow point bullets are no more lethal than the old lead and full metal jacket bullets. Deadly force is just that, it does not have degrees. Shooting some one with a .22 short is the same thing legally as shooting them with a .500 S&W Magnum. It is deadly force in both instances.

Soft point bullets in handguns are rarely ever going to go fast enough to be effective. There will, of course, be exceptions to this statement. I can think of no JSP that I would want to depend upon, however.
 
There have been plenty of wronful death suits and criminal trials based on the ammo used. There have been many cases linked on THR and elsewhere. If you aren't seeing these cases it isn't my fault. Carry whatever you want, just don't come on here complaining when your being prosecuted or sued for using hollow points.

Just one case on here right now: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264701
No offense, but did you read the thread? The title is quite deceptive, the ammunition is not the reason for the trial nor the outcome. If a family wants to take you to civil court, ammunition isn't going to be cause or even a relevant factor.
 
There are no magic bullets.

Carry the most reliable handgun you can find that fits you well. Spend a lot of time training with it. Enough time so that your friends think you were born with it in your hands. Then and only then are you ready to worry about what ammo to carry for self defense.

I'm serious, you'll be better served by spending the time and money that you're expending on the search for the perfect defensive handgun round on training and practice ammunition.

Handguns are very poor fight stoppers. No one makes a magic bullet that's going to turn yours into a one shot one kill superweapon.

Jeff
 
There are no magic bullets.

Jeff White's Post I agree with.

I will add:

Gun has to feed, fire , extract and repeat.
Magazines are a critical component of what makes a gun work too.
Gun has to run - period.

Shot placement is not going to happen if the ammunition does not work with the gun, and some guns are designed to shoot POA/POI "best" with certain grain weight bullets.

It does not matter what anyone else uses, what a magazine says, or Internet says.
One has to get the training, one has to shoot to see what works in their gun.

JSP, works fine for me, and in the guns I have/ may choose to use them out of.
My guns run, I know because I have tested for me , with all carry magazines.
 
Well, for one, read up on the Harold Fish trial in Arizona. Both his use of a 10mm round and use of hollowpoints were points of attack by the prosecution. During a Nightline(Dateline?) report afterwards, one juror stated that she voted for guilty based largely upon his use of especially deadly (?) bullets.

However, I still will continue to use hollowpoints. Winchester Ranger to be exact. If you think that hollowpoints will land you in the hotbox, but you're going to be safe by using those "nicer" JSP rounds, well, you've probably already got your mittens pinned to your jacket. Handicapping yourself by using anything less than the best round that functions in our weapon and is accurate makes about as much sense as a soup sandwich. If the "victim" or his family see you as an open cash register and go for a civil suit, the particular round you use will likely have as much to do with it as what brand of coffee you had that morning.
 
Any defense attorney who lets a prosecutor get away with pushing the use of JHPs should be disbarred. I don't think there is a police department in this country that is not using JHPs. Why do they use them? Because they work better than FMJs to stop a BG and because two many departments were being sued because FMJ has a bad habit of going all the way thru the BG and hitting innocent bystanders. There were also a number of officers killed and wounded when their rounds passed thru the BG who was able to keep shooting. Also they were totally outgunned when the 158gr LRN was the standard police load in .38sp and .357.

As for JSP rounds, as far as I know they very seldom will work at normal handgun velocities although they do exceeding well in the .357M, 41M, 44M and 10mm. They might also do well in a +P+ 9mm but I don't know of any on the market. Cor-Bon seems to have come up with a cartridge that has the advantages of both the JSP and JHP in its Pow'R Ball round which has a plastic sphere as the nose in front of a hollowpoint. With the round nose created by the sphere the round will feed through anything and the ball also solves the problem JHPs have of getting filled with clothing and failing to expand. No I am not a Cor-Bon dealer but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize a round that feeds through any gun and expands well is going to be an asset. No I have not used any, primarily because I'm still working on breaking in my XD45, but it will be one round I will test when I start looking for a round to use for HD because it is the round a friend of mine is not afraid to stake her life on.
 
little case law on the books re: using handloads for self defense.

i don't feel any compelling reason to use handloads with all the quality commercial ammo available. and i don't want to be one of the first published cases where i live (fairly antigun).

On the other hand, it would also look fishy if the person handloads EVERYTHING else, but goes out of their way to buy "special ammo for killing" Get it?
HP's for me. I want to stop the threat as quickly as possible with the most energy transfer to the target. Any exit is wasted energy with possible danger to bystanders.
 
The main argument for or against using SP, HP, or FMJ is in what you want the bullet to do and what forces it has available to do it with. A soft point usually will not expand reliably under 1200fps, a HP can expand at as slow as 700, but can either fragment at higher speeds, or can become clogged and not reliably expand, either of these two designs may not feed well in autoloaders. A FMJ is desingned to not expand, penetrate as far as possible, and is the most reliably feeding round for most autos, they also tend to be the cheapest available. Assuming proper training, practice and knowledge of your weapon IMHO if I can get to a carbine or shotgun I will, either offers vastly superior stopping power and greater precision for threats both 2 and 4 legged,but if a hangun is all thats available I prefer win SP bullets in magnum revolvers both 357 and 44, gold dots in 9mm and FED HST in 45acp. I practice mostly with these combinations and have found they reliably feed, expand, penetrate and offer the best accuracy for each weapon. I have spent most of my free time shooting and experimenting, and almost no time reading up on the legal arguments one way or another, so I guess I cant be of much help in that area
 
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