Kent State - 35 years ago today...

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Not only were they murdered, they were murdered by Ohio National Guard AKA draft dodgers.

I was in basic at Ft Leonardwood and I can tell you that the NGs and ARs were keeping a very low profile in our basic training company for the eight weeks we RAs were forced to coexist with them.
 
Lessons learned at Kent State:

1. If classes are canceled due to riots and burning buildings, keep more distance between you and the riot than 90 yards - at least 1000 yards, or better yet, stay home..

2. Don't throw light bulbs and bricks at people holding loading M-1 Garands - a popping light bulb could convince someone they are being shot at. thus prompting them to bust a cap in your unwashed butt.

3. Don't stick around to watch the riot - M2 ball goes a long way, and the dude wearing the gas mask might miss the SDS leader chunking the brick at him, and hit you by accident.

4. Attempting to prevent the violence and mindless destruction of war by going on a violent and mindlessly destructive rampage represents a level of irony that only college professors can appreciate, and they are on your side already. Besides, it can get you killed.
 
The last time a protestor attempted to throw a brick at me (Jan. 20, 1990 in downtown Panama City, 1st anniversary of Operation Just Cause), he almost got a 1979 Buick Skylark up his A$$ at 60 mph.
I can understand why someone might want to shoot at a so called "peace protestor" who is heaving bricks at him.
 
Lots of tough guys here. It was a disgrace to America. BTW, I knew a guy in an another Ohio unit that was made mainly of college kids (not a farm boy unit). They told their lieutenant that if this continued and he ordered them to fire on students, he might take a round in the melee. He said dont' worry.

If there was a continued use of lethal force deliberately against the demonstrators, the country might have disintegrated into open civil war.

My campus was occupied by state and local police and had massive riots. Using guns would have been the last thing to do unless under direct attack that could not be handled by standard riot precautions. Sending in NG with little equipment for riots and/or training would have been ridiculous.
 
If there was a continued use of lethal force deliberately against the demonstrators, the country might have disintegrated into open civil war.

I agree completely. And I don't think shooting demonstrators is the right thing to do.

But rioting, burning buildings you disagree with, destroying property, assualting people, something needs to bring that crowd under control right quick. Unfortunately, open firing was what was required to do so.
 
This could get interesting. Not defending anybodies actions but:

How would you react by replacing the Kent State students with pissed off Pro-Gun Right Activists who are tired of Govt intervention of their God given rights that their for-fathers shed their blood for? Would they throw bricks? Burn down a building? Hmmmmm.

Right or wrong you have to understand their state of mind. Back then people didn't trust their Govt at all. Today people just turn their heads and move on. Those days were interesting indeed. Yes I was in HS at that time.
 
But rioting, burning buildings you disagree with, destroying property, assualting people, something needs to bring that crowd under control right quick. Unfortunately, open firing was what was required to do so.

Unfortunately, your statement has nothing to do with the facts. As also pointed out, the use of lethal force cannot be undertaken lightly. This was not a reasoned use of force but a sad aberration.
 
Unfortunately, your statement has nothing to do with the facts. As also pointed out, the use of lethal force cannot be undertaken lightly. This was not a reasoned use of force but a sad aberration.

Yeah, I believe it does.

When a drunk is running around at 100 MPH, the police stop him. Why? He will hurt someone.

When kids are driving around at night shooting paintball guns at people, the police stop them. Why? Because someone is going to get hurt.

When that guy stole the Tank around LA, and went on a rampage, police stopped him. With lethal force. Why? He was going to hurt someone.

Were the guardsmen in immediate danger? I dunno. Wasn't there. I do believe Moltov's were in use at one point, a very deadly weapon. Rocks are by no means nice to be hit with. A building had been burnt down, and when the firemen arrived, their equiopment destroyed to prevent them from fighting the fire. They had proven their intent on destruction.

The crowd needed to be stopped. Someone was going to get hurt before long.
 
4. Attempting to prevent the violence and mindless destruction of war by going on a violent and mindlessly destructive rampage represents a level of irony that only college professors can appreciate, and they are on your side already. Besides, it can get you killed.
Reminds me of a saying that went around about that time.

"Rioting for peace is like f****ng for virginity"...
 
Using guns would have been the last thing to do unless under direct attack that could not be handled by standard riot precautions.


And what, pray tell, is the appropriate response to a Molotov Cocktail or brick upside the head? I would have shot. Plus please explain how the deceased were "peacefully walking to class" less than a football field away from a riot, on a campus where classes were cancelled?
 
I don't feel much sympathy for the longhairs, but I do feel sympathy for the USA, so deeply divided back then - and things don't seem to have improved much, do they?
Then read a book by James Michener titled: "Kent State: What Happened?"

You will find out that the nat guard were not surrounded (open on three sides) were not being bombarded by bottles (pelted by a few small rocks) and opened fire without any order. Further, of the 30 or so who fired, nearly all fired over the heads as warning. Only a few aimed at humans and those who did committed murder. :cuss:
 
And what, pray tell, is the appropriate response to a Molotov Cocktail or brick upside the head?
Read the book, that is just a load of crap peddled at the time to substantiate the defense they used as "clear and present danger" to justify murder committed by not more than three or four soldiers.
 
http://www.spectacle.org/595/kent.html

Kent State, May 4, 1970: America Kills Its Children
Twenty-five years ago this month, students came out on the Kent State campus and scores of others to protest the bombing of Cambodia-- a decision of President Nixon's that appeared to expand the Vietnam War. Some rocks were thrown, some windows were broken, and an attempt was made to burn the ROTC building. Governor James Rhodes sent in the National Guard.
The units that responded were ill-trained and came right from riot duty elsewhere; they hadn't had much sleep. The first day, there was some brutality; the Guard bayonetted two men, one a disabled veteran, who had cursed or yelled at them from cars. The following day, May 4th, the Guard, commanded with an amazing lack of military judgment, marched down a hill, to a field in the middle of angry demonstrators, then back up again. Seconds before they would have passed around the corner of a large building, and out of sight of the crowd, many of the Guardsmen wheeled and fired directly into the students, hitting thirteen, killing four of them, pulling the trigger over and over, for thirteen seconds. (Count out loud--one Mississippi, two Mississippi, to see how long this is.) Guardsmen--none of whom were later punished, civilly, administratively, or criminally--admitted firing at specific unarmed targets; one man shot a demonstrator who was giving him the finger. The closest student shot was fully sixty feet away; all but one were more than 100 feet away; all but two were more than 200 feet away. One of the dead was 255 feet away; the rest were 300 to 400 feet away. The most distant student shot was more than 700 feet from the Guardsmen.

Some rocks had been thrown, and some tear gas canisters fired by the Guard had been hurled back, but (though some of the Guardsmen certainly must know the truth) no-one has ever been able to establish why the Guard fired when they were seconds away from safety around the corner of the building. None had been injured worse than a minor bruise, no demonstrators were armed, there was simply nothing threatening them that justified an armed and murderous response. In addition to the demonstrators, none of whom was closer than sixty feet, the campus was full of onlookers and students on their way to class; two of the four dead fell in this category. Most Guardsmen later testified that they turned and fired because everyone else was. There was an attempt to blame a mysterious sniper, of whom no trace was ever found; there was no evidence, on the ground, on still photographs or a film, of a shot fired by anyone but the Guardsmen. One officer is seen in many of the photographs, out in front, pointing a pistol; one possibility is that he fired first, causing the others, ahead of him, to turn and fire. Or (as some witnesses testified) he or another officer may have given an order to fire. It is indisputable that the Guardsmen were not in any immediate physical danger when they fired; the crowd was not pursuing them; they were seconds away from being out of sight of the demonstration.

There was also an undercover FBI informant, Terry Norman, carrying a gun on the field that day. Though he later turned his gun into the police, who announced it had not been fired, later ballistic tests by the FBI showed that it had been fired since it was last cleaned-- but by then it was too late to determine whether it had been fired before or on May 4th.

It would be too charitable to say that the investigation was botched; there was no investigation. Even the New York City police, who are themselves prone to brutality and corruption, do a better job. Every time an officer discharges his weapon, it is taken from him, and there is an investigation. Here--to the fatal detriment of the federal criminal trial which followed--it was never conclusively established which Guardsmen had fired, or which of them had shot the wounded and the dead. Since all were wearing gas masks, it is impossible to identify them in pictures (many had also removed or covered their name tags, a classic ploy of law enforcement officers about to commit brutality in the '60's and '70's), and though many confessed to having fired their weapons, none admitted to being in the first row and therefore, among the first to fire. The ballistic evidence could have helped here, but none was taken.

One rumor has it that the Guardsmen were told the same night that they would never be prosecuted by the state of Ohio. And they never were. The Nixon administration stalled for years, announcing "investigations" that led nowhere; White House tapes subsequently released show that Nixon thought demonstrators were bums, asked the Secret Service to go beat them up, and apparently felt that the Kent State victims had it coming. As did most of the country; William Gordon calls the killings "the most popular murders ever committed in the United States."

The history of the next few years is very sad. A federal prosecution was finally brought, but the presiding judge is said to have signalled his preference for the defendants, guiding their attorney's conduct of the case to help them avoid legal errors. He dismissed all charges at the close of the prosecution's case, avoiding the need for a defense and taking the case away from the jury. Among his reasons: a failure to prove specific intent to deprive the victims of their civil rights; due to the lack of any investigation, it was almost impossible at this late date to show which Guardsmen shot which victim.

In the New York City police force, which is far from perfect, officers who have killed or injured someone under questionable circumstances are often dismissed from the force even though there is not enough evidence for a criminal conviction; the standard of proof is not the same for an administrative action as for a criminal case. You don't want an unstable, sadistic person on the force, even though there may not be enough evidence for a criminal conviction. But the Guardsmen--even the one who confessed to shooting an unarmed demonstrator giving him the finger--were not deemed unfit to serve the State, even though they had fired indiscriminately into a crowd containing many passsersby and students on their way to classes.

A civil suit brought by the wounded students and the parents of the dead ones deteriorated among infighting by the plaintiffs' lawyers. Unable to agree on a single theory of the case, they contradicted each other. The jury returned a verdict for the defendants.

This verdict was overturned on appeal--the main ground was that the judge did not take seriously enough the attempted coercion of a juror who was assaulted by a stranger demanding an unspecified verdict--and a retrial was scheduled. On the eve of it, the exhausted plaintiffs settled with the state for $675,000.00, which was divided 13 ways. Half of it went to Dean Kahler, the most seriously wounded survivor, and only $15,000 apiece went to the families of each of the slain students, a pathetically small verdict in a day when lives are accounted to be worth in the many millions of dollars. The state issued a statement of "regret" which stopped short of an apology for the events of May 4th, nine years before.

I write this just a week after the Kansas city bombing that appears to have taken 200 lives (the rescuers are still searching the wreckage) and the theme today is the same as 25 years ago. Hate was in the air then, as it is today. Admittedly, the First Amendment protects hate speech, whether it comes from the most marginal extremist or the highest public official. Demonizing someone else for their beliefs or their race, or even calling for their immediate assassination, is legal in America today and was twenty-five years ago. But the fact that something is legal to do does not make it right to do, or relieve the speaker of any moral responsibility for the consequences.

President Nixon created a public atmosphere in which students who opposed the war were fair game for those who supported the government. In the week following Kent State, construction workers rioted on Wall Street, attacking antiwar demonstrators and sending many to the hospital, some permanently crippled. It was reported at the time that, a day or two after the deaths, President Nixon called the parents of the only slain student known to be a bystander--he was a member of ROTC--to express condolences. The phone never rang in the other parents' houses. The message couldn't have been clearer: they had it coming.

I was fifteen that year, raised in a very comfortable middle class environment and very naive. Kent State was my political education. What I discovered that week, and that year, was that America in those times was perfectly willing to harass, beat and kill its own children if they disagreed with government policy. The step from being a member of the protected American mainstream to being a marginalized outsider, not entitled to the protection of law enforcement and fair prey to any violent, flag-waving bully who happened to pass, was to stand up and say you did not believe the Vietnam war was right.

I am not sure that anyone too young to remember those times can really appreciate what it was like. We know today the extent to which the FBI was involved in dirty tricks, illegal wiretapping and burglaries against even moderate antiwar organizations. Prior to Kent State, I had joined an organization called Student Mobilization Against the War. One day, their offices were burglarized and their membership lists stolen. We had no doubt at the time that it was the government, and we were right.

I led demonstrations that week outside my high school protesting the Kent State killings and, afterwards, the principal summoned me and my father to his office and threatened to have me expelled as a trouble-maker. My father--I am very proud of him, as he was not an ideological man and his opposition to the war was very muted--replied that if I was expelled, he would fight it "all the way to the Supreme Court." I had done nothing else than exercise my First Amendment right of protest. We heard nothing more about expulsion, but a close friend of mine, who didn't have an assertive parent to stand up for him, was thrown out of school.

That week, people came out of the woodwork--wearing black leather, chains wrapped around their fists, waving American flags--people we had never before seen in our neighborhoods. These patriots set up a counterdemonstration across the street from ours. For hours, a rumor was rampant that they would attack us and that the police would not intervene--exactly what had happened on Wall Street a day or so before. Their cursing and chain-rattling became uglier until finally they summoned their courage and charged. Someone shouted "Link arms!" and five or six teenagers, me among them, joined to interpose our bodies between the attackers and demonstrators. The Brooklyn police, unlike those on Wall Street, or the National Guard in Kent days earlier, did not seek or condone the killing of children. They ran in and forced the attackers back. I was fifteen then and am forty now, but I have never had a finer moment in my life. It was the only moment in my life that I came close to living up to Gandhi's statement that "we must be the change we wish to see in the world."

Here are the names of those who died at Kent State, so that they may not be forgotten:


ALISON KRAUSE

JEFFREY MILLER

SANDRA SCHEUER

WILLIAM SCHROEDER
 
Rich Young penned:
Plus please explain how the deceased were "peacefully walking to class" less than a football field away from a riot, on a campus where classes were cancelled?

You need to get the chronology correct. The KSU campus was NOT closed until AFTER the shootings. At the time of the confrontation with the NG, regular classes were still being held.
 
"Read the book, that is just a load of crap peddled at the time to substantiate the defense they used as "clear and present danger" to justify
murder committed by not more than three or four soldiers."

WHY DID THE GUARDSMEN FIRE?

The most important question associated with the events of May 4 is why did members of the Guard fire into a crowd of unarmed students? Two quite different answers have been advanced to this question: (1) the Guardsmen fired in self-defense, and the shootings were therefore justified and (2) the Guardsmen were not in immediate danger, and therefore the shootings were unjustified.

The answer offered by the Guardsmen is that they fired because they were in fear of their lives. Guardsmen testified before numerous investigating commissions as well as in federal court that they felt the demonstrators were advancing on them in such a way as to pose a serious and immediate threat to the safety of the Guardsmen, and they therefore had to fire in self-defense. Some authors (e.g., Michener, 1971 and Grant and Hill, 1974) agree with this assessment. Much more importantly, federal criminal and civil trials have accepted the position of the Guardsmen. In a 1974 federal criminal trial, District Judge Frank Battisti dismissed the case against eight Guardsmen indicted by a federal grand jury, ruling at mid-trial that the government's case against the Guardsmen was so weak that the defense did not have to present its case. In the much longer and more complex federal civil trial of 1975, a jury voted 9-3 that none of the Guardsmen were legally responsible for the shootings.

I take the above to mean that Michener beleives the guard was justified in opening fire. FWIW a rock is a "deadly weapon", and no one denies the rioters, (illegally gathered, i might add), were throwing rocks. Finally, it seems the guardsmen have been cleared in every legal action brought about, so I'd be a little more careful about slinging the "murderer" tag around.
 
I take the above to mean that Michener beleives the guard was justified in opening fire.
hat's not what his book says and it is not what the facts support. A group of armed soldiers with open terrain on three sides, and a clear cover position directly in their path if they kept walking was not in imminent threat from a bunch of kidds flipping them off and throwing stones from upwards of 50 to 100 yards away.

Michener did not conclude the guard were justified and neither has anybody else who impartially examined the facts of the event.

I actually read his book, as well as all the other available documentation at the time.

Finally, it seems the guardsmen have been cleared in every legal action brought about, so I'd be a little more careful about slinging the "murderer" tag around.
Well, then why don't you sue? I recall a still photo of a guardsman aiming at the photgrapher taking the picture. If you aim an M-4 at an unarmed man and kill him, that's murder. Period. And I will slap the murder tag on anybody who does it.

Guardsmen testified before numerous investigating commissions as well as in federal court that they felt the demonstrators were advancing on them in such a way as to pose a serious and immediate threat to the safety of the Guardsmen,
Which was an ad hoc lie invented after the fact. One thing witnesses agree on is the "crowd" was walking parallel and staying at distance. Further, the guard had the option of increasing the distance in any of three directions. The 'advancing hoardes" line of bull was put together after the incident, as was most of the story. The testimony of the "clear and present danger" parroted so accurately by all involved was obviously rehearsed. The "facts" were altered to support the self defense excuse, the reality of it does not agree. Examine the photos actually taken at the time, the testimony of witnesses who heard no order to fire and sporadic bursts of fire, and the physical evidence of placement of the students shot versus the guard. Stevie Wonder could see what happened here.
 
richyoung posted this:
I take the above to mean that Michener beleives the guard was justified in opening fire. FWIW a rock is a "deadly weapon", and no one denies the rioters, (illegally gathered, i might add), were throwing rocks.
The real issue here with the NG was not whether the shooting was justified (and that's a separate debate) but why persons as far away as 300+ yards wound up getting hit. The problem I see is that it's hard to claim a student (or anarchist) that far away presented a danger to anyone. I would be inclined to think the NG was not being very discriminating in their choice of targets if they were engaging persons up to 300 yds away.

Incidentally, two of the four students killed that day were never tied to the demonstration in any way. They appear to have been literally minding their own business, and just going to class, when they got caught in the fusillade.
 
I was in Vietnam at the time. I worked in an intelligence function and the inventory of weapons that came out of Cambodia was unbelievable. I believe we did the right thing by going in. I wish that the kids back home could have understood what we were doing and why.
 
Oscar, you are absolutely correct. History has shown that our invading Cambodia was the correct thing to do. Of course, the media of the time never reported it, and most of the American population got their information from that VERY filtered source.

So....it's not surprising that both the students (and the American population as a whole) thought that the invasion of Cambodia was a "bad thing".

It sort of makes you wonder how much of what the media now reports on Iraq is accurate. Then again, those of us who know persons over there KNOW that the whole story is not getting back to the American voters.
 
I was wondering when bountyhunter would show up with his mile-long irrelivant and/or biased quotes.

Don't bother arguing with him, he'll just pull a "bountyhunter(tm)" and drop the topic when he's proven wrong.
 
The great thing about getting a moronogram from rebar is you don't have to tell him where to shove it..... he's been told so many times, it should be memorized by now. And to Rebar, adieu:

Ad Hominem.... the last refuge of the mentally unarmed.

Since you are offended by my post, but claim I always "drop a thread when proven wrong"... logic would dictate an infallible method to drive me away would be to show how wrong my "irrelevant" quotes were?

What's that.... ad hominem and drivel is the sum total of your contribution?

One might think you had no ammunition to back up your claim that my post was "irrelevant". BTW, whining doesn't do much to advance your case.
 
LOL - bountyhunter, your well-earned reputation is already known by most here. It's an honor to be put on your ignore list.
 
The great thing about getting a moronogram from rebar is you don't have to tell him where to shove it..... he's been told so many times, it should be memorized by now. And to Rebar, adieu:

Bountyhuner,
Don't bother arguing with morons, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
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